Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Effinhunter]

Thanks for the suggestions!

I've updated the first post with the sim results from last night. I've separated the 840/870 ilvl artifact sims into 3m and 7m durations, which I believe covers the core ideas here. To MM, I've added a "Trait 20-28 Options" section to the artifacts breakdown for traits 20-28. Hopefully, this is intuitive. I figure most people won't look at this again until 2 weeks after expansion hits when they're entering the 20+ trait options.

I'll get to the SV and BM stuff soon. I may also do a BM breakdown of just the first 11-13 traits for those planning to invest in BM at the beginning for mythic dungeon clearing with its ridiculous AoE cleave, and then switching to MM for spec specialization to build the raiding spec.

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Currently running stat plots for agi and all secondary stats for each spec with mythic dungeon gear, 7min fights. I'm including 1 target, 3 target, and 6 target to show scaling of stats in each of these.

[Deleted]

Currently running stat plots for agi and all secondary stats for each spec with mythic dungeon gear, 7min fights. I'm including 1 target, 3 target, and 6 target to show scaling of stats in each of these.

Is this inc the survival buffs?

[Effinhunter]

Is this inc the survival buffs?

There are no custom changes to this in the hunter module:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/s.../sc_hunter.cpp

Here is what the SV mastery is reporting from the spell dump included in Simcraft:
SV Mastery dump: http://pastebin.com/EZb7fqRJ
Full spell dump in current Simcraft: https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...ump/hunter.txt

The specific value of interest in the SV Mastery description is "Hotfixed: Sub Type (107 -> 4), Affects Spells"

The spell data for hunter was last updated on August 13, and the Patch supposedly was applied on August 16. So, I'm assuming this will not include the mastery buff, unless I am missing something. Generally, spell data is not updated until a major patch, and I'm not sure if this was a hotfix or a full patch. If it was a full patch, we probably just need a new spell data dump to be committed for hunters.

Edit: I'm going to do some simple scale factor sims first with 50k iterations. Then I'll try to do stat plots later. Stat plots take much longer.

- - - Updated - - -

Stats for single target at Raid Release (Mythic Dungeon 840/870ilvl)

I'm posting a few things for each spec. DPE is something we often use to tweak the APL to try to find a bit more dps. DPS Per Point may be interesting when considering weapon dps value in terms of scale factors (remember that relics are how we upgrade weapon dps now, and assuming 3:1 point ratio may not be as appropriate anymore for scale factors--we need to check into that)

BM
Simcraft settings: 420s +/- 20%, 50k iterations, Simcraft Source

BM Stat Scale Factors at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


BM Damage Per Execute at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


BM DPS per Point at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact



MM
Simcraft settings: 420s +/- 20%, 50k iterations, Simcraft Source

MM Stat Scale Factors at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


MM Damage Per Execute at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


MM DPS per Point at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact



SV
Simcraft settings: 420s +/- 20%, 50k iterations, Simcraft Source

Note that mastery may actually contribute up to twice this scale factor, depending on how the August 16th patch was supposedly implemented.

SV Stat Scale Factors at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


SV Damage Per Execute at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


SV DPS per Point at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact



So, why should we care about DPS per Point? What does that have to do with scale factors?

Weapon DPS is no longer the product of simple item level upgrades to weapons. Our understanding of this relationship is probably in a state of flux. The default settings for Simcraft scale factors are producing point ratios of 1138:341 for agi/secondaries to weapon dps. This is how the normalizing factors and scale factors are computed. This is a factor of 3.3372434017595307917888563049853 favoring agility and secondary increments to weapon dps. This was based on our old item budgeting. Here is what the stats actually look like on MM's current 840ilvl gear/870ilvl artifact.



This seems relatively similar to how our gear stats used to look before they took agility off necks, rings, and backs. So, keeping agi:secondaries at 1:1 scale factor increments doesn't seem too problematic.

Here's what weapon dps looks like at 870 ilvl artifact for MM:



Simcraft doesn't give us direct weapon dps in the stat breakdown and the weapon in the gear slot just shows the base version of the weapon at 750. The base version at 750 has a weapon dps of 917.4 at weapon damage range of 2752-2753. This comes from the simple equation {damage range} / {weapon speed} = {weapon dps}. From the gear breakdown, we can see that the 870 ilvl artifact has a damage range of 8423 - 8425, so let's make that 8424 (the average of those numbers). 8424 / 3 = 2808. Meanwhile, the agility that comes from this setup is 11306. The ratio of agility to weapon dps in this profile is actually 4.0263532763532763532763532763533 instead of 3.3372434017595307917888563049853. This means that weapon dps is harder to come by here than agility is and the scale factors may need to be tweaked to a different normalizing ratio.

In other words, I believe we may need to push scale_weapon_dps downward from 341, if we want to keep using 1138. Might be 282.64, unless my math is incorrect somewhere.

[Yuyn]

If you want to test the hotfixes to SV, just use these overrides:

override.spell_data=spell.190931.duration=14000
override.spell_data=effect.280652.sp_coefficient=2

You'll find that it improves the value of haste up to roughly 19% (formerly it dropped off around 15%), and puts mastery just a touch below crit/vers -- at least that's what I've found simming at 100. So the priority, roughly, looks like:

Wdps > Agility > Haste (to 19%) > Crit ~= Vers >= Mastery > Haste (over 19%)

(Again, at least at 100. I haven't done anything for 110 or artifacts or whatnot at all. I'm also not sure what the haste dropoff is caused by -- best guess, GCD reduction to potentially fit another Mongoose Bite into any given Mongoose Fury.)

[Effinhunter]

I can rerun with that spell data override. I'll post results of scale factors to thread in a bit. Running some mm tests real quick.

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MM scale factors with scale_weapon_dps=282. Obviously, since wdps dominates in MM like crazy, this doesn't really cause a change in priorities at all (and is quite a small difference for something this powerful).

Simcraft settings: 420s +/- 20%, 50k iterations, Simcraft Source


Edit: Currently running SV scale factors sim with Yuyn's override for SV mastery

[Yuyn]

A couple quick-and-dirty plots at 100 that show the haste dropoff (from a sim on a 100 with 18.86% haste, so the centerpoint is roughly the 'soft cap' that seems to happen). I can post the complete profile I ran with if anyone's interested.





(Don't take these as gospel or anything, of course. I'm mostly just simming for myself with my own character, but since I already did some of the work and this is new stuff with the hotfixes, I figured I'd try to contribute a bit.)

[Bisso]

So what happened to Draenic potions? Did they change it that the 1000agi gets nerfed to the ground at 110? Or is the potion not at all usable? Or is it simply you didn't put it in your sims because it has become too insignificant?

[Effinhunter]

SV with Mastery Override (August 16 Patch)

Simcraft settings: 420s +/- 20%, 50k iterations, Simcraft Source

SV Stat Scale Factors at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


SV Damage Per Execute at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


SV DPS per Point at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


Note that scale factors are shit at dealing with haste breakpoints. If there is a haste breakpoint here, as Yuyn seemed to indicate, haste is undervalued.

Current SV gearset in my profile has just under 15% haste (14.7%). If the breakpoint is no longer 15% but actually 19%, I'll need to tweak out a different gear set.


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So what happened to Draenic potions? Did they change it that the 1000agi gets nerfed to the ground at 110? Or is the potion not at all usable? Or is it simply you didn't put it in your sims because it has become too insignificant?

The potions in Legion until recently were broken in Simcraft. Kenny recently committed a change to the hunter module in Simcraft that deals with potions.

You can see my current questions about that here:
https://trueshotlodge.ca/forums/inde....msg324#msg324

I'll look at Legion potions again soon, but the current recommendations are http://www.wowhead.com/item=127843/p...f-deadly-grace for BM and MM and http://www.wowhead.com/spell=188330/...of-the-old-war for SV. However, I haven't done a breakdown of these yet. I can put this next on my list of things to do.

P.S. The Deadly Grace potion is ~20 RPPM for 25s, so it should be ~8 procs during usage (20/60)*25. Upwards of 9 or 10 procs, if lucky, better chances if haste-heavy geared (RPPM).

[eathdemon]

There are no custom changes to this in the hunter module:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/s.../sc_hunter.cpp

Here is what the SV mastery is reporting from the spell dump included in Simcraft:
SV Mastery dump: http://pastebin.com/EZb7fqRJ
Full spell dump in current Simcraft: https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...ump/hunter.txt

The specific value of interest in the SV Mastery description is "Hotfixed: Sub Type (107 -> 4), Affects Spells"

The spell data for hunter was last updated on August 13, and the Patch supposedly was applied on August 16. So, I'm assuming this will not include the mastery buff, unless I am missing something. Generally, spell data is not updated until a major patch, and I'm not sure if this was a hotfix or a full patch. If it was a full patch, we probably just need a new spell data dump to be committed for hunters.

Edit: I'm going to do some simple scale factor sims first with 50k iterations. Then I'll try to do stat plots later. Stat plots take much longer.

- - - Updated - - -

Stats for single target at Raid Release (Mythic Dungeon 840/870ilvl)

I'm posting a few things for each spec. DPE is something we often use to tweak the APL to try to find a bit more dps. DPS Per Point may be interesting when considering weapon dps value in terms of scale factors (remember that relics are how we upgrade weapon dps now, and assuming 3:1 point ratio may not be as appropriate anymore for scale factors--we need to check into that)

BM
Simcraft settings: 420s +/- 20%, 50k iterations, Simcraft Source

BM Stat Scale Factors at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


BM Damage Per Execute at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


BM DPS per Point at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact



MM
Simcraft settings: 420s +/- 20%, 50k iterations, Simcraft Source

MM Stat Scale Factors at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact

MM Damage Per Execute at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


MM DPS per Point at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact



SV
Simcraft settings: 420s +/- 20%, 50k iterations, Simcraft Source

Note that mastery may actually contribute up to twice this scale factor, depending on how the August 16th patch was supposedly implemented.

SV Stat Scale Factors at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


SV Damage Per Execute at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


SV DPS per Point at 840 ilvl / 870 artifact


So, why should we care about DPS per Point? What does that have to do with scale factors?

Weapon DPS is no longer the product of simple item level upgrades to weapons. Our understanding of this relationship is probably in a state of flux. The default settings for Simcraft scale factors are producing point ratios of 1138:341 for agi/secondaries to weapon dps. This is how the normalizing factors and scale factors are computed. This is a factor of 3.3372434017595307917888563049853 favoring agility and secondary increments to weapon dps. This was based on our old item budgeting. Here is what the stats actually look like on MM's current 840ilvl gear/870ilvl artifact.


This seems relatively similar to how our gear stats used to look before they took agility off necks, rings, and backs. So, keeping agi:secondaries at 1:1 scale factor increments doesn't seem too problematic.

Here's what weapon dps looks like at 870 ilvl artifact for MM:



Simcraft doesn't give us direct weapon dps in the stat breakdown and the weapon in the gear slot just shows the base version of the weapon at 750. The base version at 750 has a weapon dps of 917.4 at weapon damage range of 2752-2753. This comes from the simple equation {damage range} / {weapon speed} = {weapon dps}. From the gear breakdown, we can see that the 870 ilvl artifact has a damage range of 8423 - 8425, so let's make that 8424 (the average of those numbers). 8424 / 3 = 2808. Meanwhile, the agility that comes from this setup is 11306. The ratio of agility to weapon dps in this profile is actually 4.0263532763532763532763532763533 instead of 3.3372434017595307917888563049853. This means that weapon dps is harder to come by here than agility is and the scale factors may need to be tweaked to a different normalizing ratio.

In other words, I believe we may need to push scale_weapon_dps downward from 341, if we want to keep using 1138. Might be 282.64, unless my math is incorrect somewhere.

this may be a dumb question, but in the scale factor wouldnt you include pet scaling for bm give a large part of their damage is from pet. if the spec under performs it will be because of bad pet scaling.

[3clipse]

That Wdps scaling makes me think that BM is going to drop off compared to MM as we get access to better and better Relics. It has better scaling with Agi and AP I suppose, but I wonder if that will be enough for it to keep up.

[Effinhunter]

this may be a dumb question, but in the scale factor wouldnt you include pet scaling for bm give a large part of their damage is from pet. if the spec under performs it will be because of bad pet scaling.

When quoting big posts with lots of images, please edit out the images and just put ... or something so people don't get annoyed and can find information more quickly, if you don't mind.

To your question, the scale factors include the pet's damage and inheritance of stats/ap for BM and SV. I'm not quite sure if that answers your question or not.

[3clipse]

That Wdps scaling makes me think that BM is going to drop off compared to MM as we get access to better and better Relics. It has better scaling with Agi and AP I suppose, but I wonder if that will be enough for it to keep up.

So going by the value above of 4.0263532763532763532763532763533 agility per wdps given by Effin, and assuming that holds true...

Let's define 4.0263532763532763532763532763533 agility and 1 wdps as a "point," for lack of a better word. For each point through progression:

BM gains (4.0263532763532763532763532763533 * 10.05) + (1 * 3.84) == 44.3048504274 DPS

MM gains (4.0263532763532763532763532763533 * 7.74) + (1 * 25.40) == 56.563974359 DPS

SV gains (4.0263532763532763532763532763533 * 10.52) + (1 * 11.138) == 53.4952364672 DPS

This is ignoring secondaries of course but adding them makes the math substantially more complicated, and the differences in scaling difference there tend to be small compared to what we see for Wdps and Agility (a general trend seems to be that MM also has better secondary stat scaling than BM and SV, however).

So MM > SV >> BM for scaling with gear, it would seem. Please correct me vigorously if I've fucked up the math.

edited because i cant word gud

[Deleted]

HI. atm i have many questions,

the hunter guide of Azortharion the stat priority for hunter MM is Mastery>Haste and in the Ellfin simulations is another.

two weeks to the realease and i dont know what is the good priority stats!.

[3clipse]

HI. atm i have many questions,

the hunter guide of Azortharion the stat priority for hunter MM is Mastery>Haste and in the Ellfin simulations is another.

two weeks to the realease and i dont know what is the good priority stats!.

Azor's guide is for 100 with T18 4pc assumed, for which it is Mastery > Haste. Effin's sims above are for level 110.

[Deleted]

yes, but when we were playing in the beta we thought that the best stat for KMSSS was mastery.

so now Haste>Mastery.

[Effinhunter]

So going by the value above of 4.0263532763532763532763532763533 agility per wdps given by Effin, and assuming that holds true...

Let's define 4.0263532763532763532763532763533 agility and 1 wdps as a "point," for lack of a better word. For each point through progression:

BM gains (4.0263532763532763532763532763533 * 10.05) + (1 * 3.84) == 44.3048504274 DPS

MM gains (4.0263532763532763532763532763533 * 7.74) + (1 * 25.40) == 56.563974359 DPS

SV gains (4.0263532763532763532763532763533 * 10.52) + (1 * 11.138) == 53.4952364672 DPS

This is ignoring secondaries of course but adding them makes the math substantially more complicated, and the differences in scaling difference there tend to be small compared to what we see for Wdps and Agility (a general trend seems to be that MM also has better secondary stat scaling than BM and SV, however).

So MM > SV >> BM for scaling with gear, it would seem. Please correct me vigorously if I've fucked up the math.

edited because i cant word gud

Here are the SV weapon dps breakdowns and BM breakdowns as well. Weapon dps across the specs seems roughly equivalent with the 870 ilvl artifact.

SV weapon


Weapon damage: 8086 - 12131
Weapon speed: 3.6

(Weapon damage) / (Weapon speed) = (Weapon dps)
(8086 + 12131 / 2) / (3.6) = (10108.5) / (3.6) = 2807.9166666666666666666666666667 dps

BM Weapon


Weapon damage: 8423 - 8425
Weapon speed: 3
(Weapon damage) / (Weapon speed) = (Weapon dps)
(8424 / 3) = 2808 dps

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yes, but when we were playing in the beta we thought that the best stat for KMSSS was mastery.

so now Haste>Mastery.

The way that stats usually work in every instance of WoW since Vanilla is that stats interact together. Scale factors change, often in dramatic ways, as you gear up. This can be due to a lot of things, but it's usually because of subtle inflection points (some people call these soft caps and soft breakpoints) along gear curves. The 110 ilvl profile I am using for MM has a LOT of mastery.

Here is the gear stat summary again:


What generally happens when you stack one stat (and again, this has been the case throughout WoW) is that as you stack one stat, other stats usually gain more power than they did without that stat being stacked. The reason for this is because stat interactions are not orthogonal. Stats augment each other. If you have high mastery in MM, this changes the DPE of abilities, which can have big consequences. Haste affects focus regeneration (which may be important for generating more focus to use more now heavier hitting focus-spenders). Another thing that can happen is that haste may start to become more important with certain ability/buff interactions (e.g., autoshot procs a buff that causes abilities that use mastery hitting harder, so haste makes you have more autoshots, which increases the rate per minute of the buff/debuff). Haste also lowers your GCD, which means you can do more of the high DPE abilities than you could without them. This is how haste and mastery interact.

So, if you look at the gear, we're still prioritizing mastery in the 110 profile. But the scale factors, as usual, are kind of misleading about how we got to this gear point. All they really tell you is where you should probably go from this gear point.

[3clipse]

I would assume that weapon damage will be normalized at all ilvls.

[Effinhunter]

I would assume that weapon damage will be normalized at all ilvls.

Yeah, I was just really confirming that the weapon dps across the specs stays the same, so the ratio is fine to be normalized across the specs.

[Xuven]

Has testing been done on using Tenacity pet for Survival? I use it and Thunderstomp in AoE can give me 3 instant charges of Mongoose Bite, also the charge is pretty hand for a free charge here and there too

[Effinhunter]

Has testing been done on using Tenacity pet for Survival? I use it and Thunderstomp in AoE can give me 3 instant charges of Mongoose Bite, also the charge is pretty hand for a free charge here and there too

I have not been using a tenacity pet for survival. The pet currently is a cat, which is just something I've been using for several expansions now in sims.

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First post is updated with scale factor links. See page 13 of this thread for more details on those.