Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Azortharion]

No, I switched names with Shadow on the Discord just a few minutes ago for the giggles. Shadow is a player in Encore @ Illidan. And as I remember, his name was always Shadow, but whatever.

EDIT: I also edited the post to include the forum post you are talking about, so that people can judge for themselves. I don't have any older ones any longer, but if you're desperate to make a point you can grab whatever you want. I think everyone else has made their mind up.

[Effinhunter]

Wait, do you actually think these pms show you as civil? Useful? They're just insulting. They insult me. They insult my guild, and the people who parse well in it. They insult every other hunter basically in the community as you claim no one else can understand hunters. They show that you did in fact lie in that thread that got locked about not having used exploits this expansion. Because you forgot? Right. You had what? Like a month or two of logs invalidated because of it on Warcraftlogs?

They're essentially the response of someone with an extreme personality disorder. You should not be proud of them. You should be ashamed.

All these show is that I have tried repeatedly to talk reasonably with you, compliment you and offer olive branches, pretty much since SoO. Every time I do, you get more horrible. That's just who you are.

Edit: Mods, please do not close this thread just because Azor is trying really hard to get it locked.

[Azortharion]

No, they don't show me as civil, but I am not trying to come off as more civil than I am, unlike yourself. I am just trying to make people understand why I disagree with your theorycrafting practices. You can complain all you want about me being toxic, narcissistic, anything you want, but all that matters to me and anyone else reading is that people get the right information. Everything else is thin air to me. You can try to make it personal if you want and draw the pathos card to drive people against me because I'm an asshole, and you might succeed with some, and that sucks, but that's their loss.

I just checked, I had 2-3 weeks of invalidated logs on WarcraftLogs. So what, who cares? The red one in this screenshot was invalidated, and yeah, I forgot because the impact this exploit had was next to nothing. To anyone wondering, you could throw a fruit basket to get into combat for a second or two, proc trinkets, feign death, equip other trinkets, and then pull the boss with a lot of trinkets at the same time. It was great fun, and I'd do it again.

The red one was invalidated, all the rest are legit. Unless you believe Effinhunter when he says that every single one of my logs are exploited or otherwise cheated for.

I feel like there's a lot of things you can give me shit for, being an asshole is one of them, but to try and tear me down as a player is a loser's game.

[Deleted]

I dont understand how someone like azor can gain such a huge ego in such an irrelevant game as wow I mean its fucking wow, it got easier and easier with each expansion and while the skill cap of the game is constrained in a downward spiral, the ego of some players expand to new heights. Hilarious.

He is still right about MM tho, yet it isn't hard to figure that out.

Nvm, its prolly because the overall skillcap of the game is so low and so many good players left and top guilds disbanded that all the hunters left flock to only one with a brain left to praise him as a god.

Hail azor!

[Smog]

Wait, do you actually think these pms show you as civil? Useful? They're just insulting. They insult me. They insult my guild, and the people who parse well in it. They insult every other hunter basically in the community as you claim no one else can understand hunters. They show that you did in fact lie in that thread that got locked about not having used exploits this expansion. Because you forgot? Right. You had what? Like a month or two of logs invalidated because of it on Warcraftlogs?

They're essentially the response of someone with an extreme personality disorder. You should not be proud of them. You should be ashamed.

All these show is that I have tried repeatedly to talk reasonably with you, compliment you and offer olive branches, pretty much since SoO. Every time I do, you get more horrible. That's just who you are.

Edit: Mods, please do not close this thread just because Azor is trying really hard to get it locked.

I don't believe Azor ever stated they make him sound civil. He comes off as an arrogant dickhead, and is infact exactly what he calls himself.

That doesn't invalidate his argument or make him wrong. He's pretty much spot on in everything else he says. Were the personal insults necessary? No, probably not. But the fact of the matter about "insulting the community" is that most of the WoW community consists of idiots and bad players. That's just the way it is.

I've been in Top 100 guilds (or guilds that would become top 100) since 2004, but I still freely admit that I'm not a great player. I depend upon the truly top players and pillars of the class communities to do the legwork so that I can prioritize learning and improving along their guidelines. Just doing this has provided me countless server firsts and a few Top 10 kills, even though I freely admit I am not a stellar player.

He's absolutely right that players need to stop focusing on sims. The simple fact is that most players (95+%) would be served much better by bothering to REALLY learn their class, the encounters, and put in practice time mastering their rotations, than worrying about a sim that tells them swapping a trinket will provide 1.3% more throughput. By continually churning sims out to the masses, it continually propagates this behavior and distracts from the real issues holding players back from improving.

It's simply true that most players do not want to admit they're bad, or that they could vastly improve. It's easier to just look at sims and min-max and wrap yourself in a delusion of competence than put in the time to actually improve. That's what Azor wants people to do. That's what people should do. Azor being a jerk is irrelevant.

[Azortharion]

I have a pretty contained ego over this game, and I don't take all the glory for myself. I have an ego attachment to my guides, but that makes the guides better because I don't wanna be proven wrong. The best way to not be proven wrong is to make the guides correct. It's all pretty simple. If I didn't have some kind of ego attachment to my guide, I might as well not give a shit if they're correct.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't believe Azor ever stated they make him sound civil. He comes off as an arrogant dickhead, and is infact exactly what he calls himself.

That doesn't invalidate his argument or make him wrong. He's pretty much spot on in everything else he says. Were the personal insults necessary? No, probably not. But the fact of the matter about "insulting the community" is that most of the WoW community consists of idiots and bad players. That's just the way it is.

I've been in Top 100 guilds (or guilds that would become top 100) since 2004, but I still freely admit that I'm not a great player. I depend upon the truly top players and pillars of the class communities to do the legwork so that I can prioritize learning and improving along their guidelines. Just doing this has provided me countless server firsts and a few Top 10 kills, even though I freely admit I am not a stellar player.

He's absolutely right that players need to stop focusing on sims. The simple fact is that most players (95+%) would be served much better by bothering to REALLY learn their class, the encounters, and put in practice time mastering their rotations, than worrying about a sim that tells them swapping a trinket will provide 1.3% more throughput. By continually churning sims out to the masses, it continually propagates this behavior and distracts from the real issues holding players back from improving.

It's simply true that most players do not want to admit they're bad, or that they could vastly improve. It's easier to just look at sims and min-max and wrap yourself in a delusion of competence than put in the time to actually improve. That's what Azor wants people to do. That's what people should do. Azor being a jerk is irrelevant.

This sums it up well.

I am not trying to come off as civil, I am trying to come off as correct.

[Orionid]

This was so entertaining to read, I thank you for it. But wow MMO-C is even worse then Discord now-a-days xD

EDIT: From a member of the community (US-55th) I have little to no knowledge of SimC and the correct ways to interpret it and more importantly how to determine when it is flawed. That being said it really blows when a million different Sim results are out there that essentially mean absolutely nothing. So instead I read my abilities, talents, traits, I learn my class and come to a conclusion on what would appear to be best. Then I sit on a target dummy and practice and try out different things. Then I look to guides like Azor's that give great information and mathematical evidence as to why X > Y. I for one appreciate everything you do sir, and completely understand and actually find the ass hole attitude to be somewhat warranted with all you deal with. Because the fact of the matter is, you can not base real gameplay 100% off sims. There will always be some curveball that comes your way which you will need to adjust for on the fly, and there is no way to account for that in sims. Spreading misinformation is a disease to the Hunter and WoW community as a whole.

#faq-readme
-guide

[Deleted]

This was so entertaining to read, I thank you for it. But wow MMO-C is even worse then Discord now-a-days xD

EDIT: From a member of the community (US-55th) I have little to no knowledge of SimC and the correct ways to interpret it and more importantly how to determine when it is flawed. That being said it really blows when a million different Sim results are out there that essentially mean absolutely nothing. So instead I read my abilities, talents, traits, I learn my class and come to a conclusion on what would appear to be best. Then I sit on a target dummy and practice and try out different things. Then I look to guides like Azor's that give great information and mathematical evidence as to why X > Y. I for one appreciate everything you do sir, and completely understand and actually find the ass hole attitude to be somewhat warranted with all you deal with. Because the fact of the matter is, you can not base real gameplay 100% off sims. There will always be some curveball that comes your way which you will need to adjust for on the fly, and there is no way to account for that in sims. Spreading misinformation is a disease to the Hunter and WoW community as a whole.

#faq-readme
-guide

tl;dr
l2p first

[eschatological]

Let's be clear: misinformation has always been defined on this site as deliberately presenting factually wrong information. It is infraction worthy as trolling. If someone takes a sim out of context, that's not misleading. That's like repeating a raid strategy that's a snapshot of a certain point in progression and saying the strategy is misleading. Drop this petty bullshit, now. This thread is done with this argument over which math is relevant or irrelevant, because it should be a civil discussion, but y'all can't seem to have it civilly. Effin specifically created this thread because there's already another thread with a different philosophy on theorycrafting. Leave it at that.

[3clipse]

I oppress misinformation (usually badly interpreted sims)

You take away its social rights? Damn dude, that's cold.

I am not trying to come off as civil, I am trying to come off as correct.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/oppress

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/suppress

Couldn't help myself.

[Azortharion]

Someone else used the word first, not me, I was just piggybacking off of their post. ;p

If you'd read the link, though, to oppress does not only mean to take away something's social rights.

[3clipse]

Someone else used the word first, not me, I was just piggybacking off of their post. ;p

If you'd read the link, though, to oppress does not only mean to take away something's social rights.

Yeah but snarky posts with long and accurate word definitions lose a lot of the humor.

[Effinhunter]

So, here's a sim that I've been working on a bit. What I'm doing is trying to configure the BiS T19P profiles with mythic dungeon gear and the appropriate traits for the first and second week of raiding (heroic on 3rd week and mythic on 4th week) to see what seems viable and what obviously is not. This is a part 1 of this look into the three specs. The other one will be for AoE with both reasonable single target talents.

Now, let me preface this a bit with why I'm running the sim. There are some guilds that will possibly allow their hunters to go SV, and I wanted to investigate where they might be at in single target fights. The majority of hunters in guilds are not going to be allowed to go SV because they were recruited as ranged. According to many of the posters here, some have been recommending BM because of its burst and cleave, but most, including myself, have posted lots of arguments (mathematical and not so mathematical) about why we think MM is the preferred raiding spec.

Let me offer the following as further evidence of why BM is just not quite ready to be your main spec for raiding at launch of raids.

Simcraft settings: 450s +/- 20%, 50k iterations, Simcraft Source

So, as I said before, I'm using my own APLs because some of the Simcraft ones are not quite right (the BM one, for instance, still isn't using potions in the regular APL, but Jade is going to be fixing that). My MM one is roughly 3k above the one that Jade had been using, and it was waaaaay ahead of the default APL. Again, all of that should be fixed soon in Simcraft.

Now, what is interesting about the above?

BM takes a lot of artifact points to get to a state where it's competitive with the other specs. MM is ready to raid at 20 and then the bump at 24 (CotH) is also really good. By 20, you have all the MM AoE you need with WG and other traits like that. Yes, CotH does work off Vulnerability, and it does also increase AoE, but WG is a big bump once fully upgraded. SV is competitive at 20 and extremely good at 24 and 27.

Now, the AMR artifact timeline that is floating around uses very conservative estimates of the AP gain you'll be having. It's basically just doing dailies and weeklies on CD. However, if you are one of the many top hunters that is going to be doing constant dungeons and other methods of gaining AP, you are going to be significantly ahead of the 20 trait estimate by first raid (heroic EN). You could be at 22 or even 24 over those three weeks. It just depends on how absolutely try hard you are (and I know many who read these forums are going to be playing a LOT). Even if you are tryhard, I haven't seen anyone claim they can get 26 AP in the first week (unless there's some exploit that I don't know about, which is possible). This fact hurts BM's viability in the first week of raiding a LOT.

There are other factors hurting BM's viability for top raiders. The first is the boss fights themselves in EN. The AoE fights we have do not have very good cleave characteristics. Most of the strats being floated around right now involve spreading adds apart due to auras, especially. So, BM suffers in these AoE situations. Again, we've mentioned this many times, but since people are claiming misinformation here, I'm trying to be verbose.

I'll post about the AoE stuff soon. I just wanted to get this out before I got distracted with other things.

[desert-wind]

Giving people the ability to run the sims for themselves isn't worth a lot since most people don't know how to interpret on simcraft results or use them for much, that's why almost no one has produced anything meaningful that way. Something like "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.".

I only moderate the Hunter Discord, it isn't mine anymore.

I find this, and the attitude you put behind it, amusing because it is far and away what has been the weakest part of your theory crafting since you started doing it. The other hunters in my guild and myself take your information, then we apply common sense and logic to it, then we play. Even lately your post on why you would take mm over bm, came to the correct conclusion (mm) but for entirely the wrong reasons.

Having said that, you've been getting much better at that, and your personality had seemed to temper a bit as well. I thought you'd learned something and maybe grown up a bit, but then the other hunter links me to this series of posts for a laugh and... maybe not...

[Azortharion]

Even lately your post on why you would take mm over bm, came to the correct conclusion (mm) but for entirely the wrong reasons.

I'd like to hear you elaborate on this.

[Deleted]

Maybe, but to claim that each class's community doesn't have important members who provide extremely valuable information, and that said community wouldn't be damaged by their departure, is just plainly wrong. Just as Warriors would be set back by Archi or Sarri's sudden disappearance, the Hunter community would be by Azor's.

Hmm... No.

[Azortharion]

I find this, and the attitude you put behind it, amusing because it is far and away what has been the weakest part of your theory crafting since you started doing it. The other hunters in my guild and myself take your information, then we apply common sense and logic to it, then we play. Even lately your post on why you would take mm over bm, came to the correct conclusion (mm) but for entirely the wrong reasons.

Having said that, you've been getting much better at that, and your personality had seemed to temper a bit as well. I thought you'd learned something and maybe grown up a bit, but then the other hunter links me to this series of posts for a laugh and... maybe not...

So no elaboration? I wasn't really expecting one given that the post is nonsense.

You don't know if Marksmanship was the right conclusion yet. And you certainly don't know if the reasons I've cited are the right ones as a result.

The snark in the latter part of your post is irrelevant, not sure why you'd even include it but yeah, sure, you don't like me, it doesn't support your actual point, just devalues it because it looks like your opinion isn't really founded on a rational thought, but more like a personal vendetta.

[Deleted]

SOrry for the stupid Q but what is T19P? What the P mean?

[Azortharion]

It stands for Preraid.

[Rucktoe]

I have a question in regards to Survival.

If I mess up and apply my last stack of mongoose bite just as mongoose fury expired, should I remove the new mongoose fury and wait to apply it when I have full stack of bite?