Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Azortharion]

I am suggesting to you what is probably the best way to go about leveling the artifact, it's not like I am telling you what I'm gonna do because it makes me feel good over a cup of coffee, but you do you. Enjoy Legion.

[PeopleReady]

You're gonna wanna level as Marksmanship, save all AP and then put that AP into Beast Mastery, get it to 13 traits and use it for mythic dungeon gearing of all sorts, then start putting stuff into the MM artifact.

Do you still feel BM is markedly better than MM in dungeons, despite Effin's most recent sims which suggest MM may be on equal footing in dungeons? I trust both of you guys.

[Azortharion]

Do you still feel BM is markedly better than MM in dungeons, despite Effin's most recent sims which suggest MM may be on equal footing in dungeons? I trust both of you guys.

Yes I do. I believe his sims to be misleading and wrong. See http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post42087472 for why.

[Effinhunter]

And I'm responding to that thread as well. If my sims are in error, we can change them. That's why I post the source and invite comments. There is zero intention of misleading anyone, and the only thing disagreeing with Azor gets me is grief on these forums, so I try not to do this just for fun on a Saturday night.

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P.S. I should note that if you want to argue that BM is being hurt by me not fully speccing AoE, then we could certainly switch SV and MM to AoE and see just how strong of a point you have after that too. Volley/Trick and Volley/Piercing are SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than Barrage/SW in updated Simcraft.

Top MM Talent Combinations, Single Target, 450s +/- 20%, 10k iterations


Top MM Talent Combinations, Three Target, 60s fixed, 10k iterations


Top MM Talent Combinations, Six Target, 60s fixed, 10k iterations


Simcraft Source: http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/...legion_md.simc

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So, if you want to do Mythic+ with fully AoE MM, you have some ridiculous tools up your sleeve to do so. I don't think that's the best idea, but honestly, Mythic+ will get pretty easy as everyone gets gear anyway, so whatever.

[Azortharion]

@Effin, I did run Marksmanship with Piercing, though not Volley. I also switched Survival to Butchery for this.

Here's all cooldowns allowed:



Here's 1min+ cooldowns disabled:



Here's all cooldowns disabled (where a cooldown is a >31s cd)



This is still with Beast Mastery at 13 traits by the way, so massive disadvantage. You're also not counting that Furious Swipes relics are not only quite common, but also easily the strongest relic available to any of the specs for pretty much anything.

[Effinhunter]

Well, I'm rerunning all of the SV and BM talent sims for 1, 3 and 6 targets, but when I get all that done, I'll try to get a set of sims together that you and I can agree on for Mythic+.

Realistically, as I said in that original post, we're seeing one of the best tuned states we've ever been in. There really are going to be many options for getting Mythic Level 10s cleared.

P.S. How many targets are you doing in these sims? 6? Can you start posting some source so I at least know you're not pulling my chain?

[Azortharion]

This is identical to your sim, it's 1 target but with the raid events that you dictated in your sim 2 pages ago. The iLvl/gearing is preraid, the MM/SV artifacts are 21 while Beast Mastery is just 13 (which is what I recommend taking BM to, I am simming it at an artifact disadvantage to display just how little it takes for Beast Mastery to beat nearly fully decked out BM and SV artifacts).'

And yes, you can do Mythic+ as all specs, but with how repeatably Mythic+ can be, doing them faster just means more gear, therefore it's in anyone's best interest to do them as quickly as possible, not just the maximum time to beat the timer for the extra loot.

[Effinhunter]

P.P.S. I'm running the AoE BM and SV sims for 3 targets and then 6 targets first. I'll try to post them when they're done.

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This is identical to your sim, it's 1 target but with the raid events that you dictated in your sim 2 pages ago. The iLvl/gearing is preraid, the MM/SV artifacts are 21 while Beast Mastery is just 13 (which is what I recommend taking BM to, I am simming it at an artifact disadvantage to display just how little it takes for Beast Mastery to beat nearly fully decked out BM and SV artifacts).'

And yes, you can do Mythic+ as all specs, but with how repeatably Mythic+ can be, doing them faster just means more gear, therefore it's in anyone's best interest to do them as quickly as possible, not just the maximum time to beat the timer for the extra loot.

There are three different raid event types listed in that post. 2 mobs with 1 transient. 3 mobs with 2 transient. 6 mobs with 5 transients in 2 groups that die within 30s and 45s of pull. Which one are you talking about?

[Azortharion]

raid_events+=/adds,count=3,first=0,duration=30,cooldown=60
raid_events+=/adds,count=2,first=0,duration=45,cooldown=60

[Effinhunter]

OK, 6 target. Got it. I'll rerun in a bit and this time populate with some different talent combinations. I had been running MM with pure AoE builds and BM with similar, and the single targets were just so ridiculously different (with BM suffering a lot it seemed) for the Tyrannical buff that I just tossed them out thinking it was a waste of time.

[Azortharion]

Beast Mastery single target is totally shit, but it's not nearly as shit as the prio target thing says it is.

This is full AoE talents, single-target.

[Effinhunter]

Another question about what you've been recommending. When I was in discord, the conversation seemed to be "BM for Mythic+, period", but did you really mean just for week 1, when MM is between 20-22 or did you mean indefinitely, like MM 28 (all dps traits), for the foreseeable future? Because part of this was meant to outline how people should approach Mythic+ not just in the first week but throughout EN. I don't want to predict how Mythic+ will change after EN because they're either going to be forced to add more affixes past 10, reduce the time lower than 35 minutes for 11+, or they are going to have to change things to make this more interesting. All I can really do is look at what they have in front of us right now, but I don't want to only look at the first week's situation.

[Azortharion]

Since Beast Mastery at 13 traits is better than Marksmanship at even 34 traits most of the time (since there's almost no gain past 20, and no gain whatsoever past 24 for MM), yeah that should last throughout the tier. When EN has been out for a while, you'll probably just want to make your BM artifact really fat with Stormgod and Titan's Thunder, though the jury is still out because Marksmanship's set bonuses in NH might make it super insane for Mythic+ as well as raiding, so it might be better to get to MM Paragon traits etc for NH

[Ahraa]

tl/dr and just want to ask the smart people:

what spec am i playing for mythic dungeons and raid progression?

[Smog]

tl/dr and just want to ask the smart people:

what spec am i playing for mythic dungeons and raid progression?

BM for Mythic+, MM for raiding.

[Effinhunter]

Since Beast Mastery at 13 traits is better than Marksmanship at even 34 traits most of the time (since there's almost no gain past 20, and no gain whatsoever past 24 for MM), yeah that should last throughout the tier. When EN has been out for a while, you'll probably just want to make your BM artifact really fat with Stormgod and Titan's Thunder, though the jury is still out because Marksmanship's set bonuses in NH might make it super insane for Mythic+ as well as raiding, so it might be better to get to MM Paragon traits etc for NH

Hah. No. Actually, strike that. Put your money where your mouth is and prove that there is no dps gain past 20. Keep your artifact at 20, since 21-28 do not produce dps, according to you, and let's see how well you do on the All Stars list.

Deal?

[eathdemon]

is the call of the hunter trait proc rate that bad?

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he isnt saying that, he is saying when you hit 20 you should than do atleast 13 in bm before continuing if you plan on doing mythic+

[Azortharion]

Hah. No. Actually, strike that. Put your money where your mouth is and prove that there is no dps gain past 20. Keep your artifact at 20, since 21-28 do not produce dps, according to you, and let's see how well you do on the All Stars list.

Deal?

21-24 produces a little DPS, Precision + Call of the Hunter. It's mostly Precision though, because Call of the Hunter is like 1.1% or so.

24-28 is mostly in Quick Shot, which is either excellent or pretty shit.

So yeah, they are gains, they are just not that convincing, and they are outrageously expensive because of how the system works. It's not even that controversial of a claim, I think. This is a sim for 21 vs 28 traits where Quick Shot gives you an extra Trueshot.


If you wanna win the All Stars as Marksmanship, obviously you're gonna fuck Beast Mastery right over and never play it, and put absolutely everything in your Marksmanship artifact, but I don't think there really exists anyone who cares that much about All Stars rankings.

The cost of going from 13 BM traits to 18 is 60k artifact power. Beast Mastery gets Stormgod at 18 traits, which is pretty huge.

Meanwhile, the cost of going from just 20 MM traits to 24 is 268k artifact power. Going from 21 to 28 costs 935k artifact power. For 935k power, you could take the BM artifact up very high. Of course, you'd wanna stop doing that after Stormgod already probably, since it doesn't get really good until 26 traits and even that is pretty meh for just M+.

[Effinhunter]

If you wanna win the All Stars as Marksmanship, obviously you're gonna fuck Beast Mastery right over and never play it, and put absolutely everything in your Marksmanship artifact, but I don't think there really exists anyone who cares that much about All Stars rankings.

OK. You're trolling me, right? You literally have been putting this kind of information in your signature for years. It's really, really important to you.

[Azortharion]

Yeah, Effin, let's jump on some personal vendetta instead of sticking to the topic.