Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Naggash]

I don't think its our Bis on ST fights. The thing is, in OWtP/stomp build you are not really focus starving with the belt, sometimes of course you will have to wait for focus to use KC in the killer cobra window, but its a small downtime. One SS relic is like 7% reduction of CS focus, which is half of which belt gives during BW.

Maybe this relic is on par with Jaws with apex/huntmaster legendary combo, but with the legendary belt i think its on par with Unleash. And its good, more choice

[Effinhunter]

BTW, since apparently I have to explain this. The Legendary combos described as 2pc/4pc are meant as "using 2pc/4pc whenever possible". If the legendary breaks the set piece, there is nothing I can do about that. I keep the 4pc T20 and I break the 915 ilvl 2pc. You can see where I comment out the 915 2pc pieces. I'm not saying "all of these profiles are 2pc/4pc." I'm saying "whenever possible, keep 2pc/4pc, otherwise, 4pc T20".

As for the "If you don't like where BM is, contact the devs through media they actually look at" comment, this is not a call-to-arms for some major slight. It's a response to people PMing me, mostly in game or in Discord, about what they should do about the situation with some guidance so people stop flooding me with panicked requests to figure out what to do about it. Posting MMO Champion threads is NOT going to fix such a situation, and that's what I'm saying. If you don't like where BM is, you need to post to devs with statistics they will care about or simply just complain to them. Either of them may potentially work, but posting here in this thread or anywhere else on MMO Champ will not. It's just a waste of your time.

We, as a community, know that they have responded to Twitter complaints, and they've talked about how much easier it is to parse feedback in 140 characters.

[Aryia]

Posting MMO Champion threads is NOT going to fix such a situation, and that's what I'm saying.

Which situation? I mean, I still can't see what's the problem here. BM is easier to play, no constraint, and since it has poor mechanics, it can't face most of the situations ranged are supposed to deal with. It can cleave, for sure, but switch? Naaaaa, let's stay on the boss and ask for some other really ranged people to take care of this mechanic for me. It sums up all Nighthold. It's time for BM to finally be a less rewarding spec than MM, it took already way too too long for this to happen.

So honnestly, I can't see anything wrong with these sims. If you want to ask something to the devs, ask them to make 3 REALLY range spec for hunter, not 1.5.

[Tharkkun]

Which situation? I mean, I still can't see what's the problem here. BM is easier to play, no constraint, and since it has poor mechanics, it can't face most of the situations ranged are supposed to deal with. It can cleave, for sure, but switch? Naaaaa, let's stay on the boss and ask for some other really ranged people to take care of this mechanic for me. It sums up all Nighthold. It's time for BM to finally be a less rewarding spec than MM, it took already way too too long for this to happen.

So honnestly, I can't see anything wrong with these sims. If you want to ask something to the devs, ask them to make 3 REALLY range spec for hunter, not 1.5.

Target switching issues are practically nonexistent now since they buffed pet speed and increased kill command / dire frenzy to 40 yards now. There's no reason ever to make one spec worse than another now. PVP used to be the excuse but now they can tweak that with templates so there's no excuse for PVE not being reasonably balanced.

[Deleted]

Which situation? I mean, I still can't see what's the problem here. BM is easier to play, no constraint, and since it has poor mechanics, it can't face most of the situations ranged are supposed to deal with. It can cleave, for sure, but switch? Naaaaa, let's stay on the boss and ask for some other really ranged people to take care of this mechanic for me. It sums up all Nighthold. It's time for BM to finally be a less rewarding spec than MM, it took already way too too long for this to happen.

So honnestly, I can't see anything wrong with these sims. If you want to ask something to the devs, ask them to make 3 REALLY range spec for hunter, not 1.5.

Target switchg problems are a thing of the past now. We have been fixed in that aspect.

[Sanat]

Is there any way to model the Cradle of Anguish sim to drop stacks x number of times and compare the uptimes of the 10 stack / 0 stack time to one another so I can get a good idea of where its still valuable to use the trinket over say a Foci?

[Holovik]

Is there any way to model the Cradle of Anguish sim to drop stacks x number of times and compare the uptimes of the 10 stack / 0 stack time to one another so I can get a good idea of where its still valuable to use the trinket over say a Foci?

I think simming is a flawed way to interpret this trinket. It relies on your group comp, your legendaries (like, are you wearing Prydaz), how good your healers are at raid healing, your ability to not stand in stuff/not having to participate in soaks or mechanics. Seems like this trinket will get better as you get bosses on farm whereas progression or high raid damage fights it will be total shit. There are just too many variables to accurately sim other than the static "reset X number of times per 5 mins" that SimC might be able to accomodate.

[jaimelannister]

It's time for BM to finally be a less rewarding spec than MM, it took already way too too long for this to happen.

Stop. Spec difficulty HAS NEVER and WILL NEVER relate to how well a spec performs on DPS meters. Blizzard designs almost all specs in this game with a single, best way to play the spec, and they don't care if it's "easy" or "hard". They are just trying to make each spec unique and fun (whether they succeed in either of these goals is an entirely different discussion, of course). There is absolutely zero reason that folks who prefer X spec over Y should be stuck doing less DPS when they have zero choice in how difficult their preferred spec is. If a player prefers the "class fantasy" of a Hunter with a pet by their side, why should they be punished on the meters because BLIZZARD decided that for this patch/xpac/whatever that BM will be easier to play than MM?? It's simply an asinine argument.

As soon as Blizzard starts designing all specs with options for easy/med/hard playstyles, and rewards the harder playstyles with more DPS, then we can re-visit this argument. Until that day (which will never come, mind you), this entire argument about how such-and-such spec should do less DPS because it is "easier" is both ridiculous and completely moot.

[Aryia]

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This entire argument about how such-and-such spec should do less DPS because it is "easier" is both ridiculous and completely moot.

This was not an argument. I know Blizzard don't give a f*** about how hard/easy a spec is, and how much dammage it can produce. This is not about Blizzard. This is about BM hunters going to complain that their spec isn't the best anymore.

Your opinion is that every spec no matter how easy/hard is to be played should reward the same. I think that getting help like a lot of passive free dammages (20% of what BM deal is pet attacks and autoshots), be able to move when you want no matter what makes the spec the "easy one" and should reward less. If you want te be able to deal more, then you would have to go for something less permisive. THIS should be fair. This is not about PvP, this is not a Moba or something, where hard to play champs have to compete the same than the easiest ones. This is PvE, and how hard/easy a spec is should tell how much dammage it can deal.

This is my opinion, and I'm completely fine with how things are right now.

[Tharkkun]

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This was not an argument. I know Blizzard don't give a f*** about how hard/easy a spec is, and how much dammage it can produce. This is not about Blizzard. This is about BM hunters going to complain that their spec isn't the best anymore.

Your opinion is that every spec no matter how easy/hard is to be played should reward the same. I think that getting help like a lot of passive free dammages (20% of what BM deal is pet attacks and autoshots), be able to move when you want no matter what makes the spec the "easy one" and should reward less. If you want te be able to deal more, then you would have to go for something less permisive. THIS should be fair. This is not about PvP, this is not a Moba or something, where hard to play champs have to compete the same than the easiest ones. This is PvE, and how hard/easy a spec is should tell how much dammage it can deal.

This is my opinion, and I'm completely fine with how things are right now.

Hard casting shots that are 2-3 seconds is really no different than standing there watching your pet attack. It's just feels different because you can't jump up and down. But in reality it's 1 big hit versus smaller attacks over the same period of time. BM is just as interactive of a spec as MM and prior to 7.2.5 it required more management than MM. It's not a players fault that Blizzard designed a spec to have less movement restrictions than another one. That's all on Blizzard. Bottom line is the damage potential of every spec in this game should be even in equivalent gear.

[jaimelannister]

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This was not an argument. I know Blizzard don't give a f*** about how hard/easy a spec is, and how much dammage it can produce. This is not about Blizzard. This is about BM hunters going to complain that their spec isn't the best anymore.

Your opinion is that every spec no matter how easy/hard is to be played should reward the same. I think that getting help like a lot of passive free dammages (20% of what BM deal is pet attacks and autoshots), be able to move when you want no matter what makes the spec the "easy one" and should reward less. If you want te be able to deal more, then you would have to go for something less permisive. THIS should be fair. This is not about PvP, this is not a Moba or something, where hard to play champs have to compete the same than the easiest ones. This is PvE, and how hard/easy a spec is should tell how much dammage it can deal.

This is my opinion, and I'm completely fine with how things are right now.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm entitled to tell you your opinion is wrong. The player has no choice in how easy/hard their spec is, so ease of play should absolutely NOT factor in to how much damage the spec is able to produce. And this is not just my opinion; it is the way Blizzard designed the game. If they could wave a magic wand and make all specs perform the exact same on the meters, you bet your ass they would do it.

[Khrux]

Lets buff Feral by 100%, because as these clowns say: Difficulty should reward more dps......

Its fine if Feral just beats everything all the time, because its hard to play right? Or better again, a hunter focused example. Lets just buff Survival to do far superior damage to the other two hunter specs because its harder to play? I'm sure these MM tryhards will be happy that they're the #2 spec again to the melee hunters.....

[Effinhunter]

Each class community seems happiest when dps specs are within 5% of each other or so. 10-20%, especially in single target, is indefensible--especially when you factor in the billions of ap investment around half of the hunter community has made into BM. Not to mention the time spent farming BM legendaries.

That being said, we'll just have to see how the single target breakdowns work out. As Draco said, the parses haven't been so bad in ST that there is cause for alarm. Goroth has been working out in BM's favor because of soak requirements, especially. As more MM hunters get permission to never have to soak to parse, that is likely to change, but that's also well past progression.

[ydraw]

Each class community seems happiest when dps specs are within 5% of each other or so.

Except hunter forums, where MM players insist that MM always be far better than BM.

[tholdin]

Except hunter forums, where MM players insist that MM always be far better than BM.

I have yet to be out dps'd by an MM hunter in NH or Tomb of my ilvl, as a matter of fact, I consistently bury MM hunters, 7,8,9 ilvls higher than me.

Don't now what all the hubbub is about...

[Deleted]

I have yet to be out dps'd by an MM hunter in NH or Tomb of my ilvl, as a matter of fact, I consistently bury MM hunters, 7,8,9 ilvls higher than me.

Don't now what all the hubbub is about...

::generic reply about the poor quality of MM hunters you have been playing with::

[tholdin]

::generic reply about the poor quality of MM hunters you have been playing with::

Seems to be an awful lot of them then.

No reason to get your hackle up buddy.

[Deleted]

Seems to be an awful lot of them then.

No reason to get your hackle up buddy.

Actually, I'm BM too. I'm giving you the sort of answer I get when I mentioned the kind of thing you did too. Years and years of hunter, that answer always crops up.

[Khrux]

Maybe with the t21 bonuses we've seen, Blizzard are returning to BM being the ST spec and MM having the AoE niche.(obviously without making MM shit on ST!)

I agree with Effin, when specs are within 5% of each other it doesn't really matter what you play and each spec can have niches where they outperform. BM and MM were still close on ST throughout Nighthold with MM having clear victories on Skorp/Spellblade/Tich.

As it currently stands, MM is completely over the top in both ST and AoE making the BM build entirely redundant outside of high mobility fights. However MM is has serious power creep going on in the form of gloves making movement less punishing and tier20+21 helping in that regard with quicker AimShot casts or a focus on instants(marked shot).

Unless they intend to return BM to the single target king, they need to significantly buff BM to bring it closer(within 5%) of MM so it isn't completely redundant in current tier or next tier. They also need to take a serious look at the tier19 problem, BM is being carried hard by the t19 2pc which causes an extremely strict gearing strategy by BM just to stay within 15-20% of MM...

[Deleted]

How hard is hard carried? Speaking as a somewhat average player who had NH at 5 M my 2p is granting me 23k DPS, aka 2%, compared to 915 and 930 (with versatility) off-pieces.