[BREWMASTER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[Ahsakura]

So, please tell me which of our "massive" AE spells i shall delay while weaing my legendary chest.
Keg Smash? Double survival loss by less Brews and BoF Uptime.
BoF? Look above.
Explodig Keg? Too much CD, way too much travel time.

And that's it. We don't have more for picking up adds.

I can't help but agree with this. I want to run SD for the DPS increase but I find RJW too helpful to gathering loose ads in mythic+. I don't do much raiding outside of PuG normals so I tend to stick with RJW.

[redfella]

You forget Dave [emoji14] Most comps have enough stuns to use it.

[stratti]

I have to say I have read this forum through , listened to much of the discussion and also spoken to friends about BrM. I have played the class since its' inception. I have also tanked since late Vanilla although these days generally happy to chill after completing Heroic level.

My concern is the community largely seems to discount BoC or at least not really understand how it should be used. I personally find it to be the best tank class for pure survivability, I have 1 of each at 100 and run with a Holy Priest who confirms it. During raids it is noticeable the difference in smoothing and survivability. I also do not want to hear anything relating to so called data because the data is irrelevant - you cannot quarantine stagger from the data. Stagger tbh is useful as the size of tick to ensure we are not letting it tick too high but that is about it.

Here is the deal BoC is revolutionary as a talent as a tanking mechanic. Essentially the only way this spec should be played is on every available GCD hit Blackout Combo and then make a split second decision on what needs to be done. There is no priority it floats according to the situation. The idea that there is a preset notion says to me that the player does not truly see the potential.

5 Options .

ISB post combo : pauses stagger for 3 sec
Purifying :grants a stack of elusive brawler
Tiger Palm : 2x damage
KS : reduces cds by 2s of brews
BoF : reduces the CD of breath

Here is the thing - there is no point in using KS off cd or when available - this is your o shit button if you have gone too far into your stacks. You need to determine each BoC whether this is the best option but it should not be a given - it depends on whether you are comfortable with ur stacks and u have a black ox brew up

I dont really care about BoF or TP - they are to me largely filllers although BoF talent through artifact trait makes it more relevant on mulitiple mob pulls

Now the thing with ISB that may not be completely understood is that the stagger is paused for 3 seconds. If I am taking a shit tonne of physical damage at the beginning of a fight I punch through 3 ISB after BoC - This actually has the effect of filling your stagger bar because if it does not tick it fills quicker. Then I use a combination of black ox - healing elixir - purifying brews to clear that stagger over the next time. This means that you smooth out a massive amount of damage - with self heals and purify. I often will do this with 3M damage on the stagger by ISB and pause. This is amazing for healers and awesome for survivability. Despite this according to the logs we will have taken a tonne of damage overall even though it was ticks.

Also the thing with BoC with Purifying brew - I am yet to remember a time when I did not dodge directly after. The reality of this is that it is super powerful. Effectively it is a dodge on demand while you have it available. It is really awesome for slow hitting bosses/mobs . I use it on the devastators on the Eye and watch the other tank getting slammed and I literally havent dropped. What this means is that slow hitting bosses can be dodged very easily. I noticed for example on the Bird when I would take the spiders only 6 stacks when our warrior would have 12+ . I will dodge 40%-60% of the time but that is usually the result of controlling when I drive up the dodge rate.

If you do not agree that is fine that is your choices. All I can say is that if you can learn to be responsive on each BoC and know what to do according to each situation and you effectively will not die - period.

[Herogamer555]

Also the thing with BoC with Purifying brew - I am yet to remember a time when I did not dodge directly after. The reality of this is that it is super powerful. Effectively it is a dodge on demand while you have it available. It is really awesome for slow hitting bosses/mobs . I use it on the devastators on the Eye and watch the other tank getting slammed and I literally havent dropped. What this means is that slow hitting bosses can be dodged very easily. I noticed for example on the Bird when I would take the spiders only 6 stacks when our warrior would have 12+ . I will dodge 40%-60% of the time but that is usually the result of controlling when I drive up the dodge rate.

I agree with most of what you say except this. Gaining a single stack of EB would not contribute, IMO, enough to be worth using it over pausing stagger or further reducing your brew cds with KS. In your example of stacks, I guarantee that if you had not done a single BoC + PB combo, you would have at most gained 1 extra stack if you gained any extra at all.

[Ray3andrei]

In my experience so far, I've come to the conclusion that HT is better in terms of survivability, also better when doing progression content.

[Llarold]

You forget Dave [emoji14] Most comps have enough stuns to use it.

Agreed. Dave + Special Delivery is better than having to run and use RJW when you need to pick up a bunch of constantly-spawning adds.

[Xequecal]

So, please tell me which of our "massive" AE spells i shall delay while weaing my legendary chest.
Keg Smash? Double survival loss by less Brews and BoF Uptime.
BoF? Look above.
Explodig Keg? Too much CD, way too much travel time.

And that's it. We don't have more for picking up adds.

The extra damage you take from getting hit from behind running around to get mobs into the RJW aoe is far in excess of the survivability you lose by delaying Keg Smash for a few seconds.

[redfella]

And constantly moving lots of mobs is a nuisance to the dps.

[Deleted]

The extra damage you take from getting hit from behind running around to get mobs into the RJW aoe is far in excess of the survivability you lose by delaying Keg Smash for a few seconds.

Jeha, exactly. I'm a tank who only getting hits from behind because i have no idea what i'm doing. Sorry.

[Juliansfist]

The main issues with the ox statue is its threat pulse range can be too large and pull unwanted enemies. You can do some obtuse positioning but if you're running with pugs you might want to explain it before you begin the run so they don't think you're a complete weirdo, bitch on and kick you for supposedly being bad.

Also anyone got the ox statue cancel macro handy? Had to clear my macros and am trying to find it again hehe. Nevermind found it

[stratti]

I agree with most of what you say except this. Gaining a single stack of EB would not contribute, IMO, enough to be worth using it over pausing stagger or further reducing your brew cds with KS. In your example of stacks, I guarantee that if you had not done a single BoC + PB combo, you would have at most gained 1 extra stack if you gained any extra at all.

EB works very and very confusingly. My mastery means that after 4 stacks melee hits i get guarantee dodge. With 1 Boc+ PB It lowers to 3 . The reality though is the dodge roll makes it highly likely that with just 1 stack we will dodge.As I said I do not think you can accurately model this mathematically all I can state is that in the field it is almost always dodging after 1 application with at least 1 break point worth of mastery.

As far as pausing stagger the idea of pausing stagger is in my view often misused. It is great to tick stagger - in fact to be optimal we should always be ticking a good amount of stagger. This reduces overheals and is covered with hots. In my view we should only be pausing stagger to allow for it to fill in a heavy burst period so it can maximise the amount taken. In other words if you pause stagger for 9s you will have a full bar of stagger to contend with and can smooth out 9s worth of damage.

Remember EB will stack for each succesfull melee attack.

- - - Updated - - -

The main issues with the ox statue is its threat pulse range can be too large and pull unwanted enemies. You can do some obtuse positioning but if you're running with pugs you might want to explain it before you begin the run so they don't think you're a complete weirdo, bitch on and kick you for supposedly being bad.

Also anyone got the ox statue cancel macro handy? Had to clear my macros and am trying to find it again hehe. Nevermind found it

Only found this in KZ the yard range is 30yrds i believe I have used it in every dungeon without issue except certain parts of KZ that are strange. You pull through the roof hundreds of yards away.

[Llarold]

And constantly moving lots of mobs is a nuisance to the dps.

One of WoW's most fundamental tank principles since Vanilla is "land the first hit." Dave not only does that for you, he pulls everything to a centralized location. He's great.

Establishing threat at the absolute beginning of a pull (or immediately as mobs spawn during an encounter) keeps enemies clustered tightly so the group can maximize dps, and that's the most important job a tank has after "stay alive."

[Aurlon]

So, please tell me which of our "massive" AE spells i shall delay while weaing my legendary chest.

I didn't use the word "massive" so don't put it in quotes to infer that I did.

As to the question... any of them? Delay your KS for a second or two? Tab target rotate through BS/TP until something is back off cooldown? If you know the fights you can anticipate adds coming in and plan ahead accordingly.

[AetherMcLoud]

What are opinions on Special Delivery versus Rushing Jade Wind? I've been using RJW almost exclusively since Legion dropped (to be fair, only 4 days /played) and I'm wonder if/when I should make the switch.

I hate RJW as a talent. Picking up surprise adds - or even just adds on bigger pulls that you didn't get with keg smash + BoF, maybe because they were casters and you had to roll to them first since you don't have anything else to aggro them at this point besides taunt - without RJW is really painful. Especially because we need to use both keg smash and BoF on cooldown in our rotation to keep up brew generation and debuffs. So, 90% of the time we don't have any aoe to pick up adds without RJW.

Special Delivery is a great talent and I really like it (and it looks hilarious) because I HATE the constant green aura from RJW. But you can't pick up adds with Special Delivery - it really should do lower damage but have 100% proc chance IMHO.

RJW would be so cool as a non-talent default ability for brewmasters. Then it could be used for actual add pickup, with lower damage. But as a talent competing with special delivery if you take it you basically have to use it on cooldown - and the more haste you have the more often you need to cast it too.

And then you have a really clunky rotation with BoC and the vomit-like green aura all the time

I've tried doing quite a handful of mythic dungeon (and kara) with Special Delivery, and while it's certainly doable, there were times were some DPS had aggro from 1-3 adds for like 5-10 seconds since the only thing I could do was BoS and TP (and taunt) them to get aggro.

Special Delivery for Raids 100%, but for any dungeon content I feel just handicapped without RJW. Sadly.

And yeah, sure you can plan ahead and delay keg smash or BoF by a few seconds when you know adds are coming in some boss fight that's all good and well. But the reality is that surprise adds happen, maybe because a fire mage pulled more with spreading dots, or a DH pulled something with fel rush, or simply because the healer concentrated on healing and didn't see the patrol behind him.

Flaming Keg having a more reasonable cooldown (45 secs?) would help a lot too.

[Deleted]

I tried to run with Dave but maybe I shouldn't make my attempt in MoS+ (don't remember which, but skittish was up already). Dave kindly pulled almost everything (after first 2 packs without using him) below deck for me. After wiping up as it was also teeming time, I was too afraid to get Dave's assistance again between 2 last bosses.

I much rather have my own aoe stun, than through-the-roof/wall/rock/los threat it is now - at least I can emergency interrupt 1+ casters or pause my dmg intake for another few seconds or have few more seconds to generate threat on a new incoming pack ... before I git gud with Dave.

Also feel the same on RJW/SD as Aether - I hate RJW visuals while LOVING SDelivery visuals and idea. At the same time I hate how SD doesn't proc for aoe packs and then chain-procs when I really don't need it anymore. Even with SDelivery add pickup outside of skittish isn't any real issue for me with KS (used on CD, but targeted accordingly) and BoF (used on CD, with trait). With shittish however almost every DPS I met complains about tanks not doing their jobs (no matter if I tank, or someone else) and all tanks from my guild complain about DPS whining on/about them.

(rant on)
Most recent example - went to HoV9 and wiped on the teeming/skittish dragon group before 1st boss because the hunters didn't bother to use binding and countershots (at least one used missdirect ...) and the mage decided it's no use to sheep or even slow anything. Then dps topped off with casually breaking all the paralysis I distributed and the mage left the group after, effectively destroying my key. Another lesson NOT to pug my own keys.
I got a little angry at this and went onto my BDK to tank some BRH with teeming. No skittish, no issues, right? No - the other DK casually bodypulled 2 patrols into a still ongoing spider fight, the group went down (except for me) and ... kept coming back instead of letting me die. Then the healer pulled instead of me and then the group (me, DK, DH and mage, so plenty enough interrupts and dps) failed to shut down and focus the caster add, who one-shot us all (after casually NOT focusing healer mobs already before). At least this time it wasn't my key destroyed after the mage (200k dps in aoe ...) left.
(rant off)

My point is (and I think I see it coming up in other people's posts as well) - PUGs will have a higher chance of having crappy players in them, effectively counteracting anything we (no matter BM or other class) can throw at the enemy. Maybe the current prot pala (both ranged silence + constant aoe threat baseline) and DH (multiple ways to place aoe threat + ranged silence, also all baseline) can be a good pug tank tool, but surely not a BMonk. We can take Dave (and have 1 less stun) and RJW (and have less dps) to make up for DPS fails and STILL not be able to save them.
On the other hand, I have NEVER had a bad experience with a full guild (and friends) M+ run. Maybe that's what the issue is for M+ - BMonks are not pala or DH who can compensate for DPS fails much better without sacrificing their own toolkit and output?

I have no idea about raid tanking though.

[Slatch]

I've tried doing quite a handful of mythic dungeon (and kara) with Special Delivery, and while it's certainly doable, there were times were some DPS had aggro from 1-3 adds for like 5-10 seconds since the only thing I could do was BoS and TP (and taunt) them to get aggro.

After spending a while with RJW it took me some time to get used to not having that easy AE. I went back and forth on RJW/SD for a while, then after sticking with SD I rarely have problems with adds. There are some clunky times where I tab target BS, TP, BS when adds come in, but it does the trick. Still would be nice to have baseline, although with effort our toolkit still works.

[BeardedMagician]

Maybe its just me, but when you've tanked as far back as vanilla. I dont find it necessary to have a "I press this button and have instant threat spell." Aside from skittish (which no matter who you are sucks) I find it easily manageable to target swap with bos or tiger palm if one or more mobs somehow did not get tagged by keg smash or breath of fire. The dps gain is just to good. I run mythic plus a ton and pulling 300-400k dps on 4 packs as a tank speeds up the run.

[Deleted]

I run mythic plus a ton

More than 450 so far ... I wished I had that time for games

edit: that was 3 days ago - now another 70-80 more ... sheeeesh

[Llarold]

Maybe its just me, but when you've tanked as far back as vanilla. I dont find it necessary to have a "I press this button and have instant threat spell." Aside from skittish (which no matter who you are sucks) I find it easily manageable to target swap with bos or tiger palm if one or more mobs somehow did not get tagged by keg smash or breath of fire. The dps gain is just to good. I run mythic plus a ton and pulling 300-400k dps on 4 packs as a tank speeds up the run.

Agreed. Maintaining AoE threat without RJW is pretty easy with a little re-learning and Dave, and Special Delivery is so much better for dps.

[AetherMcLoud]

Agreed. Maintaining AoE threat without RJW is pretty easy with a little re-learning and Dave, and Special Delivery is so much better for dps.

There are SO MANY pulls where you just can't use statue since it would pull more, and also losing an incredibly important aoe stun in a m+ for some aggro problems? No thanks, maybe if statue was baseline.