Is Putin behind the refugee crisis?

[Shalcker]

Yes, of course. Has anyone said free elections would be a bad idea? Problem is, Assad did not want thoes untill all hell broke loose and it's a bit too late now.

Actually elections were mostly fine (not completely fine, obviously, it's Middle East, not EU) before "all hell broke loose", and he can even be said to be way too lenient on opposition initially under Western pressure (like submitting to opposition demands to release Muslim Brotherhood guys from Syrian prisons).

It's just that once revolution started US and allies made a point that they will not accept any elections with Assad as legitimate.

Also: Say a NATO friendly president would come to power. Would Russia accept that? I'm pretty sure they'd do anything in their power to prevent that from happening.

That's quite big departure from actual situation on the ground.

And "anything in their power" before we actually committed forces on the ground after what, five years of civil war? What that would be, battalion of SpetzNaz to evacuate Assad to his Russian dacha? Or perhaps invisible KGB assassins getting opposition leaders?

Oh, and you can't just take other people stuff just becase you "are all for it".

You certainly can. Especially if it was always your stuff that you just had no reason to fight over under previous agreements :P

I'm sure Poland would be super happy if they could just take Germany but thats not how the world works. Well, it does if you have the larger army but you're not making friends that way, thats for sure.

Seems to work with Syria and Iran! No Western friends, perhaps; not no friends at all.

Russia brought the sanctions on themselves. Your leaders knew very well what would happen when they took over Crimea.

Facts show otherwise. They were pretty certain nothing will happen. Completely sure. They had EU and US beat there and that's it, back to business as usual was obvious direction they wanted to go.

And without MH17 it might have stayed mostly that way too. Still no proper attribution on that one sadly.

Maybe it was worth it? But if the main focus was better realtions with the EU and NATO then they are either stuipid (doubt it) or they just have no intrest in it.

How can they be "main focus" if EU said in case of Association Agreement "we aren't going to talk about it, we aren't going to change anything, get lost"? So we give Ukraine objectively better deal playing the same economic game as Association Agreement, and to fill their factories with orders for decades with Russian rearmament program, and EU instead of bringing better offer to the table (which was the point of Yanukovich bargaining) flips that table instead and supports outright coup...

Well, we have shown how our coups work with Crimea then too - can't be holier then Pope when it gets to strategic interests...

[Xires]

A few times already, the idea that Putin and Assad are masterminding the refugee crisis has been posted on various threads.
I'd be interested in listening to your opinion.
If possible, in a civil manner.

I find the idea ridiculous. In my opinion, the refugee crisis is connected to the destabilisation of countries that were playing a key role in migration patterns, like Libya, Iraq and Syria. All countries that were absorbing workers and keeping theirs in.

What do you guys think?

No, Hillary and Obama are behind it supported by Merkel.

[Deleted]

No, Hillary and Obama are behind it supported by Merkel.

Reason being?

[Aggrophobic]

Actually elections were mostly fine (not completely fine, obviously, it's Middle East, not EU) before "all hell broke loose", and he can even be said to be way too lenient on opposition initially under Western pressure (like submitting to opposition demands to release Muslim Brotherhood guys from Syrian prisons).

It's just that once revolution started US and allies made a point that they will not accept any elections with Assad as legitimate.

That's quite big departure from actual situation on the ground.

And "anything in their power" before we actually committed forces on the ground after what, five years of civil war? What that would be, battalion of SpetzNaz to evacuate Assad to his Russian dacha? Or perhaps invisible KGB assassins getting opposition leaders?

You certainly can. Especially if it was always your stuff that you just had no reason to fight over under previous agreements :P

Seems to work with Syria and Iran! No Western friends, perhaps; not no friends at all.

Facts show otherwise. They were pretty certain nothing will happen. Completely sure. They had EU and US beat there and that's it, back to business as usual was obvious direction they wanted to go.

And without MH17 it might have stayed mostly that way too. Still no proper attribution on that one sadly.

How can they be "main focus" if EU said in case of Association Agreement "we aren't going to talk about it, we aren't going to change anything, get lost"? So we give Ukraine objectively better deal playing the same economic game as Association Agreement, and to fill their factories with orders for decades with Russian rearmament program, and EU instead of bringing better offer to the table (which was the point of Yanukovich bargaining) flips that table instead and supports outright coup...

Well, we have shown how our coups work with Crimea then too - can't be holier then Pope when it gets to strategic interests...

Yes, the EU is to blame for it all and Russia never does anything work. We get it.
Good job. I hope they at least pay you.

[Deleted]

Just because a country is "stable" does not mean it is not a disaster. If you have a large amount of people starving with no prospects, to me, you are a disaster. Also the refugees are coming from many countries, including some African nations. There has been much instability, wars and conflicts throughout the Mid-East over the last decades (too many to mention really). Never did millions of people just pack up and leave at one time, as is happening now.

Maybe you did not read my post. I'll try again.

Syria did not have a "large amount of people starving". It was a dictatorship but a stable one. There was no sectarianism.
Libya had a very industious country. Iraq was economically beaten but had no sectarian violence.
Libya and Syria were ABSORBING migrants not PRODUCING migrants.
Now not only they CANT STOP the influx of migrants like they used to do (syria held more than a million iraqi libya used to absorb south saharian migrants), but they are also PROVIDING migrants of their own. #Now this above is the result of the removal of Saddam, Gheddafi and the war in Syria. Nothing else really.

[Shalcker]

Yes, the EU is to blame for it all and Russia never does anything work. We get it.

Where do you see "nothing wrong"?

There are strategic interests and they have to be preserved, in right or in wrong ways.
For EU it was expansion via Association Agreement - anything threatening it was worth destabilizing 40 million country of Ukraine. AND that had higher priority then relations with Russia too. Too bad for Ukraine.
For Russia it was Crimea and bases there - anything threatening it was worth outright annexation.

Good job. I hope they at least pay you.

Does anyone pay you to post to expect it from others? :P

[May90]

There are strategic interests and they have to be preserved, in right or in wrong ways.
For EU it was expansion via Association Agreement - anything threatening it was worth destabilizing 40 million country of Ukraine. AND that had higher priority then relations with Russia too. Too bad for Ukraine.
For Russia it was Crimea and bases there - anything threatening it was worth outright annexation.

It is scary that most Russians still live in the pre-WW2 era mentally, when the rule "anything goes" was applicable. Then again, it is not surprising.

[Deleted]

Yes, the EU is to blame for it all and Russia never does anything work. We get it.
Good job. I hope they at least pay you.

The EU is most definitely to blame in part for the Refugee crisis since we removed Gheddafi and supported Syrian rebels straight away no question asked.
We are also silently allowing foreign powers like USA, Saudi arabia, Turkey and Qatar, to fuel directly the civil war on our border.

- - - Updated - - -

It is scary that most Russians still live in the pre-WW2 era mentally, when the rule "anything goes" was applicable. Then again, it is not surprising.

you didnt read his post did you.

[Shalcker]

Good that you are finally admitting that your country is beyond hope and doesn't care about the international law.

We certainly care about it - we WRITTEN it together with US, you know.

That is, like US we care that everyone else is following it. When it fits our interests.

[May90]

We certainly care about it - we WRITTEN it together with US, you know.

That is, like US we care that everyone else is following it. When it fits our interests.

You are not able to control others, but you are able to control yourself. Your excuses like "The US does it too" are pathetic: if you break the law, you break the law, you don't get to justify it by someone else breaking the law.

[Shalcker]

You are not able to control others, but you are able to control yourself.

Crimea and Syria begs to differ.

Or Georgian/Ossetian conflict before that.

Your excuses like "The US does it too" are pathetic: if you break the law, you break the law, you don't get to justify it by someone else breaking the law.

How about breaking law when you're both judge and executioner? In your own jurisdiction?

We're still quite far from "world government" where ALL states could be forced into accepting something. There are several tiers and despite setbacks Russia remains on top of "can't tell them what they should do".

[May90]

Crimea and Syria begs to differ.

Or Georgian/Ossetian conflict before that.

How about breaking law when you're both judge and executioner? In your own jurisdiction?

We're still quite far from "world government" where ALL states could be forced into accepting something. There are several tiers and despite setbacks Russia remains on top of "can't tell them what they should do".

That's your problem: you think that you are both judge and executioner, when you have signed a lot of documents with other countries. I mean, sure, no one is holding your hands - but don't be surprised when you get shut down hard due to breaching the contracts.

The world has changed a bit recently. You haven't adapted: well, too bad, enjoy the sanctions.

[Aggrophobic]

The EU is most definitely to blame in part for the Refugee crisis since we removed Gheddafi and supported Syrian rebels straight away no question asked.
We are also silently allowing foreign powers like USA, Saudi arabia, Turkey and Qatar, to fuel directly the civil war on our border.

- - - Updated - - -



you didnt read his post did you.

The EU might be to blame. As I said though, no side has any intrest in helping the other.

[Deleted]

The EU might be to blame. As I said though, no side has any intrest in helping the other.

Europe has a HUGE deal of interests at play in having a stable situation throughout the whole greater middle east area considering THEY are our borders. Especially in Syria/Iraq/Turkey as our inflow of gas not comind from Russia passes through that very area.

[Shalcker]

That's your problem: you think that you are both judge and executioner, when you have signed a lot of documents with other countries.

That's because those countries keep refusing to honour previous agreements and try to invalidate them with new ones. Like with South Stream - it was agreed upon ages ago, and what EU does? Passes legislation (3rd Energy Package) AFTER that tries to take control of it, then when it fails to stop it pressures weakest country in the chain (Bulgaria) with penalties for failing to honour it.

When it's win-win agreement you're not supposed to pressure parties to get out just because it's not YOUR win...

I mean, sure, no one is holding your hands - but don't be surprised when you get shut down hard due to breaching the contracts.

See Bulgaria - they were hit with >1 billion euro fine (which was upheld in court recently) for cancelling nuclear plant project.

So far we're the ones "shutting down hard". Hell, we even overturned decision on Yukos 50 billions...

And we'll probably get Ukrainian 3 billions too - there is no legal basis in their defence of trying to weasel out of it.

The world has changed a bit recently. You haven't adapted: well, too bad, enjoy the sanctions.

Actually we adapted just fine.

It's US and EU who seem to love ancient "let's overthrow government and install one we like!" instead of doing better deals...

[Aggrophobic]

Europe has a HUGE deal of interests at play in having a stable situation throughout the whole greater middle east area considering THEY are our borders. Especially in Syria/Iraq/Turkey as our inflow of gas not comind from Russia passes through that very area.

No, I mean Russia and the EU has no intrest in helping each other.
Both the west and Russia clearly want to "help" Syria but only if Syria plays by their rules.

[Deleted]

No, I mean Russia and the EU has no intrest in helping each other.
Both the west and Russia clearly want to "help" Syria but only if Syria plays by their rules.

They both share the same interest which is stability in the area. For different reasons maybe, but we both need stability in the area.
Problem is that we are pushing for a regime change that is (according to polls and elections) not wanted by the people, right after having done the same in two other countries with similar secular baathist governments, and having experienced a catastrophic disaster in both countries.
It's fairly simple. We're on the wrong side in that war. Both morally and politically.
What we are doing is not in our interest.

[Deleted]

Dunno if Putler is directly behind it, but he certainly is using it to his advantage and escalating matters.

- - - Updated - - -



Doesn't take a psychic to predict the actions of islamophilic multiculturalist imbecils.

There is nothing to be gained by Russia from this refugee crisis.

[Independent voter]

There is nothing to be gained by Russia from this refugee crisis.

Djali, you need to contact one of your Kremlin handlers, this thread you started is out of control, you need help.

1. EU put sanctions on Russia
2. By destabilizing the EU, Russia got revenge and taught the EU a lesson, not to meddle with Russia or else.
3. The brexit vote was won by 1-2%, you can't tell me that voters worried about refugees didn't shift the vote to "leave".
4. The only nation that was happy about the brexit was Russia.

[Deleted]

Djali, you need to contact one of your Kremlin handlers, this thread you started is out of control, you need help.

1. EU put sanctions on Russia
2. By destabilizing the EU, Russia got revenge and taught the EU a lesson, not to meddle with Russia or else.
3. The brexit vote was won by 1-2%, you can't tell me that voters worried about refugees didn't shift the vote to "leave".
4. The only nation that was happy about the brexit was Russia.

Why are you still allowed to speak?