[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[jackofwind]

Now wouldn't it be cool if that was an actual choice instead of us having 2 level 100 talents and a meme? Holy Wrath it the issue, not Crusade.

Of course. Holy Wrath is a garbage talent that is obviously out of place in the PvE tree.

But it's obviously not going anywhere (the devs like the talent) and they've decided to change the way Crusade works instead. The way it currently is being proposed it's still a large DPS CD for single target, and it's also now a massive DPS CD for AoE/cleave.

It also helps weigh Mastery more heavily because of more Judgement casts and more Judgement damage, which was obviously their intention in the first place with the new Mastery effect. We're all stacking Haste right now to essentially nullify the Mastery effect and have Judgement up constantly - no one should be surprised that they've put forward a rework that pushes us away from doing so.

[Puzzony]

If the 20s CD remains, our current stat prio is toast, thats for sure.

[Gigaman]

New crusade has pretty dank cleave, especially paired with Greater Judgment. I like the design and the much needed talent synergy we currently lack. I also like the design of current Crusade though, would've been nice if they changed Holy Wrath to be Super Judgment..

[snackfeat]

Lol wtf? That has to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard so far.

You absolutely do care about AoE because almost every single fight since MoP has been some sort of cleave/AoE add fight. Normally we only get 2 pure ST boss fights, maybe 1. That change is a lot stronger than current crusade because it raises our cleave potential pretty high, which is really necessary when it comes down to raids nowadays.

Also, you have no idea if the 20 seconds will stay or not. Don't analyze the talent like that may change because we have no idea if it will or won't. And yes it'll most likely still replace AW. That, or its a passive thing baked into AW but that would be way too strong so I'd assume the former.

I have no idea if the 20 seconds will stay or not? The current crusade tooltip also said 20s cooldown on patch notes during beta. And you are smoking some good stuff if you believe they would give us a 20 sec duration buff with 20 seconds cooldown that does what this thing is doing.

[Deleted]

Yeah greater judgement + crusade may even become the default even for single target. It's the AoE burst we were missing and its alot of 100% crit judgments.

I was already finding greater judgment to be extremely useful due to spreading out mastery better (judgment debuff). Not only that but in fights where adds can be cleaved next to the boss you are likely to get a few of these 100% crit judgements. Especially with the new crusade. There is great potencial in these changes. I like them.

Though i wish they did something about the blessings. :/ At least a buff to wisdom...

[Taeldorian]

Sure, it's much stronger than current crusade, if you don't care about the 52% haste it gives, as well as stacking way faster by getting 3 stacks at a time instead of 1.

Not to mention that in raids you more often than not don't give a shit about aoe, it really doesn't matter that judgment is hitting aoe.

Lol wtf? That has to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard so far.

You absolutely do care about AoE because almost every single fight since MoP has been some sort of cleave/AoE add fight. Normally we only get 2 pure ST boss fights, maybe 1. That change is a lot stronger than current crusade because it raises our cleave potential pretty high, which is really necessary when it comes down to raids nowadays.

Also, you have no idea if the 20 seconds will stay or not. Don't analyze the talent like that may change because we have no idea if it will or won't. And yes it'll most likely still replace AW. That, or its a passive thing baked into AW but that would be way too strong so I'd assume the former.
Edit: The 20s will most likely change. I read it like it was how long it lasted. I'd assume this will change.

The haste was nice but all it really did was speed up the rotation. That's exactly what this new version of crusade does except it modifies more than just haste and str.


TLDR: Whether you like it or not, this new version of crusade modifies a lot more than the version we have now. It increases our cleave potential and aoe potential which is where we were lacking a lot. It still increased the speed of our rotation, but it does a lot more than that. Not to mention almost every fight in EN has some sort of cleave/AoE, same with NH. It's a good improvement.

[snackfeat]

Lol wtf? That has to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard so far.

You absolutely do care about AoE because almost every single fight since MoP has been some sort of cleave/AoE add fight. Normally we only get 2 pure ST boss fights, maybe 1. That change is a lot stronger than current crusade because it raises our cleave potential pretty high, which is really necessary when it comes down to raids nowadays.

Also, you have no idea if the 20 seconds will stay or not. Don't analyze the talent like that may change because we have no idea if it will or won't. And yes it'll most likely still replace AW. That, or its a passive thing baked into AW but that would be way too strong so I'd assume the former.
Edit: The 20s will most likely change. I read it like it was how long it lasted. I'd assume this will change.

The haste was nice but all it really did was speed up the rotation. That's exactly what this new version of crusade does except it modifies more than just haste and str.

Did you just copy paste your previous post?

[jackofwind]

If the 20s CD remains, our current stat prio is toast, thats for sure.

The 20s CD is disappearing but the intention is obviously to weigh Mastery more heavily via increased Judgement damage and reduced CD with the new Crusade.

It's understandable that people dislike the change if they enjoy Haste-based gameplay, but it really shouldn't be surprising that the devs are pushing the class back towards Mastery as a priority stat considering what they turned our Mastery into for Legion.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah greater judgement + crusade may even become the default even for single target. It's the AoE burst we were missing and its alot of 100% crit judgments.

I was already finding greater judgment to be extremely useful due to spreading out mastery better (judgment debuff). Not only that but in fights where adds can be cleaved next to the boss you are likely to get a few of these 100% crit judgements. Especially with the new crusade. There is great potencial in these changes. I like them.

It's going to lead to some seriously disgusting cleave numbers. The ceiling is so much higher with this new redesign.

[Taeldorian]

- - - Updated - - -

Did you just copy paste your previous post?

I'm on my phone so I have no idea what's going on but I think I did? Idk. Either way, it's a good improvement. Can't really argue otherwise.

The 20s will no doubt change. I didn't read that part correctly. But that's fine, this new version of crusade improves two weak points that we have which most boss fights are based around in EN/NH. It's an extremely welcome change.

It improves our cleave/AoE, it speeds up our rotation with judgements cd reduction and allows for more finishers due to extra HoPo gen. It also improves ST burst slightly because you can use judgement more often along with finishers.

[Deleted]

That Crusade change is really odd.

At high haste levels would it not turn Retribution 100% ranged for the duration, assuming Judgment's base cooldown is not changed?
Isn't hurling hammers non-stop from 30 yards clashing with our class fantasy?

Also, the stacks. Unless my math is way off, we need some ~23% haste and 6 traits in Wrath of the Ashbringer (35 seconds of wings) to get 15 stacks of Crusade, and we can't really spare a GCD to spend the Holy Power generated from spamming Judgment, unless we get the GCD down to 1 sec.

[Snegovik]

I really like the empowered judgement buff to crusader (can not wait to test it/see numbers) but i do agree that Blizzard should just replace H.W. with greater judgement and keep crusader for pure ST and Empowered judgement for CLV/judgement spam, since HW is such a gimmick talent I don't like idea that Ret is balanced around it.

It should be in PvP talent tree as a last talent in 2nd or 3rd column.

[snackfeat]

Crusade has been redesigned: Replaces Avenging Wrath. (Instant – 2 minute cooldown) Profoundly empowers your Judgment for 20 seconds.
While empowered, Judgment generates 1 Holy Power, has a 75% reduced cooldown, and increases your damage and healing by 3%, stacking up to 15 times.

Like I said, it's going to still replace AW and still be a 2 min cooldown. And with only getting one stack per judgment you will not reach 15 stacks until the very end of the duration, so crusade is utter trash now on anything that does not require AoE or cleave for more than 20 seconds straight, and even then it's probably still worse than the old crusade as that was also useful for aoe.

[jackofwind]

Like I said, it's going to still replace AW and still be a 2 min cooldown. And with only getting one stack per judgment you will not reach 15 stacks until the very end of the duration, so crusade is utter trash now on anything that does not require AoE or cleave for more than 20 seconds straight, and even then it's probably still worse than the old crusade as that was also useful for aoe.

Or you could gear for Mastery to match the obvious intention to push up that stat in weight and watch as your Judgements proceed to destroy the shit out of everything in sight. But you're the guy who earlier explicitly stated that in raids single target is the only thing that matters and you basically don't ever care about AoE, so your opinions have already been shown to be pretty incorrect.

The new Crusade is objectively better than the current one, and most people see that. You're completely hung up on Haste stacks, which aren't even the point of the CD anymore. How is a huge increase on our Mastery-affected ability's damage, coupled with a massive reduction in its CD, plus the effect of it granting HoPo somehow a ST DPS loss, or "utter trash"?

And, just in case you didn't notice, old Crusade was vastly inferior to the new iteration in terms of AoE. Old Crusade was barely useful for AoE, all it did was speed up the existing SoE rotation - something that will never scale well enough to do competitive DPS. The new Crusade completely reworks the priority system for its duration and dramatically increases its DPS potential.

Stop letting your emotions talk for you. We know you geared for Haste (if you were doing it right), and it seems like you're just cranky that you're going to now have a different stat priority. We all geared for Haste though. The new Crusade is still better, and provides way more potential than the old one.

[PointerToAddress]

I dont know if I'm doing my math right but right now I have ~28% Haste and my Judgment CD is at 9.39s. If that reduces it by 75% it will sit at 2.35s and even if you have 30s on Crusade duration it still won't let you cap the damage stacks. you won't get 15 Judgment casts. Unless they lower the stacks amount and increase the damage% it doesn't make sense design wise. Unless they want us at 35%+ Haste but that's unlikely.

[snackfeat]

Or you could gear for Mastery to match the obvious intention to push up that stat in weight and watch as your Judgements proceed to destroy the shit out of everything in sight.

But you're the guy who earlier explicitly stated that in raids single target is the only thing that matters and you basically don't ever care about AoE, so your opinions have already been shown to be pretty incorrect.

The new Crusade is objectively better than the current one, and most people see that. You're completely hung up on Haste stacks, which aren't even the point of the CD anymore. How is a huge increase on our Mastery-affected ability's damage, coupled with a massive reduction in its CD, plus the effect of it granting HoPo somehow a ST DPS loss, or "utter trash"?

And, just in case you didn't notice, old Crusade was vastly inferior to the new iteration in terms of AoE. Old Crusade was barely useful for AoE, all it did was speed up the existing SoE rotation - something that will never scale well enough to do competitive DPS. The new Crusade completely reworks the priority system for its duration and dramatically increases its DPS potential.

Stop letting your emotions talk for you.

In HFC there was literally one fight where you wanted sustained AoE for longer periods of time, which was xhul, not counting the first boss. Raid bosses today are mostly 1-2 targets with occasional priority targets and add packs to be bursted down. I can't think of many fights where you would be using AoE for 20+ seconds straight.

Quote me on this: If the talent goes live in this state, no one is going to use it, as you won't even be able to reach max stacks outside of hero. And even at 15 stacks it's only 10% more than baseline AW. So you would want to talent into an ability that has inferior % damage than the baseline version for over half of the duration, for no other reason than to be able to use judgment every second GCD?

[Morally Grey Storm]

So equalolity nerf, why the feth not. Good change.

Now onto Crusade...
Who cares if Judgement of Smash of Colossus of Lothar of Turalyonion cleaves during aoe?
You don't blow AW on aoe on regular enough basis, you are much rather to use it on boss, so what's the point?
Sad to see haste stacks go, I imagined it would've been fun.
Also I assume it will work like shit until certain amounts of haste are reached.

This change to Crusade might lead to new serious pvp issues by the way.
Just imagine: half a minute of 30-yard range, autocrit Judgement spam for at least 10% of someone's hp.

[caervek]

Bah, Crusade nerf makes me a sad panda

EDIT: And they're ruining BoW too

[Anardel]

I dont know if I'm doing my math right but right now I have ~28% Haste and my Judgment CD is at 9.39s. If that reduces it by 75% it will sit at 2.35s and even if you have 30s on Crusade duration it still won't let you cap the damage stacks. you won't get 15 Judgment casts. Unless they lower the stacks amount and increase the damage% it doesn't make sense design wise. Unless they want us at 35%+ Haste but that's unlikely.

That's my concern. Casting Judgement increases dmg, but that means you need to cast Judgement as a priority (leaving few GCDs to spend the HoPo) adn even doing that, you won't reach the dmg cap.

If devs are trying to buff Mastery, they are in fact buffing haste, because unless we got some MoP level haste (45% or so) we can't use this new Crusade at its full potential.

Also haste is buffed with the new redesign to Blade of Wrath. We have no choice than using BoW and stack haste to lower the CD of BoJ and to do more autoattacks to proc the BoW buff.
And for me this latter change is a nerf, BoJ has more CD and it's physical dmg.

[Puzzony]

Before the first raid content we have 30% haste easily from gear, i'm pretty sure we'll be able to hit that 45% in time.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Oh by the way, t19 nerf.
Also also, is it just me, or does our t19 4P suck?