[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Wilian]

I don't know why there are still retards telling people about any caps or 'breaking points'. Jesus fucking christ, you just need to spend 1 minute and sim your fucking character with various equipment variations yourself, and you'll see that even long after 30% haste becomes the best stat on and off again, just like all the other stats, because that's how the math of those stats works out. Just stop giving advice, posting this kind of bullshit with such a high post count is incredibly embarassing imo.

[ThePants999]

Why do people keep seeing a datamined tooltip that removes the "stacks to 15" bit of Crusade, and thinking that means it no longer stacks at all? I mean, come on, engage brain. We all know Blizzard often fails at balancing talents, but it is absolutely self-evident that they're not going to create a talent that buffs your damage by a flat 3%, replacing an ability that buffs it 35%. I say again, engage brain.

[Wrecktangle]

@Laurcus sim me right quick. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ahaline/simple

I just ran FV/TFoJ/VB/Crusade across the entire heroic raid and actually really enjoyed the playstyle. I don't know why, but it felt right. I have had the 29% haste type build and it didn't feel better, in fact damage was pretty mediocre then.

My stats are: 28% Crit, 14% Haste (using 300 Haste Food), 29% Mastery, 7% Vers. I find that running TFoJ makes low Haste a non issue. I still easily fit 2-4 TVs in a Judgment window.

I do have a crit/mast 865 necklace I could replace my 845 with (but I did notice that 9% haste was a tiny bit too low for my tastes), so feel free to play with that.

I do have FCM, 1 TV relic, 1 CS +crit relic, and 1 WotA relic.

[bigsuirlife]

I'm pretty new to retri and i'm following the icy vein guide for AP , stas and rotation.
Someone know where i can find a more in depth guide to master my main?

[Deleted]

I'm pretty new to retri and i'm following the icy vein guide for AP , stas and rotation.
Someone know where i can find a more in depth guide to master my main?

try page 1

[bigsuirlife]

try page 1

omg ty

[Deleted]

omg ty

not sure if truly grateful or sarcastic af
I have to much contact with storm ... already doubt fellow rets...

[Deleted]

I'm pretty sure there's actually a lot of breakpoints. Haste goes through peaks and valleys like every 3-5%, crit is pretty stable, and BoW vs VB has more to do with your haste than your crit, and also whether you're using TFoJ vs Zeal.

It all gets really fucked when you start examining shit in detail.

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Holy shit it's Thete.

Preach on! People will actually listen to you! Please say some shit about mastery too, because it's bad but not even half as bad as most people think it is. People act like if they have a single point of mastery their dps will drop by 50% and a drunk George W. Bush will jump out of their monitor wearing a speedo to murder them with kitchen scissors during progression.

Ret paly stats and talents work like SP used to work in WOD. Haste and Crit for ST , trying to generate HoPo the fastest way possible and casting finishers during debuffed window without having downtime and without generators being out of cd waiting to be used. TFoJ vs Zeal dilemma gonna be even harder when 7.1 and tier bonus become a reality. Haste and Mastery for AoE situations. Even in lightcleave situations we will have to decide whether greater judgment or zeal will be better depending on how often new adds come and how often we will be able to cast judge on mobs that are above 50%. There defo gonna be situations that even on lightcleave with the proper amount of mastery greater judge gonna be superior to zeal even with the upcoming patch (specially if we unlock all div storm traits and start using it on 2 targets as prio). One can safely predict that mastery gonna surpass crit and versa in the long run in everything outside ST.
However these are assumptions based on logic and not proper theorycraft/simmin.
Tbh with the great ways artifact traits, legendaries, relics, talents affect every possible combat encounter it is only natural that stat weighs vary vastly in every sim and we can understand why noone bothered to write down a proper theorycraft/ guide thread for ret pally so far this expansion.

[Deleted]

I was wondering, how much haste are people going for? Im currently at 25% haste, but im not sure its worth to go higher than that.

Edit: Nevermind .. Scrolled back after the post.. Lazy me

[Reisar]

Hey, after some weeks of very bad luck farming Faulty Countermeasure and Horn of Valor, i finally get one on-use trinket, a Horn of Valor 855 ilvl version.

Im currently using Ursoc's Rending Paw (880 ilvl) and Darkmoon Deck (850 ivl), which is the best combination now that i have Horn of Valor? I dont know to simm ..

[Deleted]

Howdie, for those interested regarding haste:


The initial haste breakpoint is 18%. Here's why:

New GCD:
1.5 / 1.18 = 1.271

Cast 6 abilities:
6 * 1.271 = 7.627 Judgment still up!

Cast one more:
7 * 1.271 = 8.898 Judgment down now

Judgment hasted CD:
12 / 1.18 = 10.168

One more ability:
8 * 1.271 = 10.168 judge back up!

As you can see, with 18% haste you have just enough to cram one more ability in the Judgment window, and lose only 1 gcd outside of it. Any less haste, and you will miss 1 ability. Any more haste will not give you an extra ability, so there is little point other than giving you some wiggle room to account for latency.


The next big breakpoint is 35%. Same logic.

New GCD:
1.5 / 1.35 = 1.111

Cast 7 abilities:
7 * 1.111 = 7.777 Judgment still up!

Judgment hasted CD:
12 / 1.35 = 8.888

One more ability:
8 * 1.111 = 8.888 Judgment back up!

As you can see, with 35% haste you'll be able to keep Judgment up all the time without ever losing a gcd. There is some merit for 30% because even though Judgment won't have 100% uptime, often (but not always) you'll need 1 additional GCD anyway for you CS or BoW. 35% is the king, but 30% isn't too bad.


So what about in-between?

Although anything in-between 18 and 35% won't change your globals, often (but not always!) it's still better than mastery at this gear level for single target, due to a more smooth rotation and auto attack. However, after reaching 18%, haste will deteriorate so rapidly that crit and even versatility becomes a much stronger stat. Generally, I would advise to stay around 18-19% to account for latency, then focus on crit/versatility, but either way simming after every single drop will be a must to determine which item is best for your character at that time. ^^


My apologies for bumping in, I just hope it helps some people. :3

Elly out o/

[OrcsRLame]

So, I finished my legendary research yesterday, so now I can wear two legendaries. I mentioned in a different thread that I was going to be running a lot of sims mainly targeted at my current neck, (870 Blackened Portalstone Necklace) vs the legendary neck. A few people expressed interest in seeing the results of those sims, so I'm posting them here. Tbh, I have no idea how to export full results pages from simcraft, so I'll just be explaining the purpose of each report, the dps yielded and stat weights for when I simmed with scaling. If anyone doesn't want to see this or doesn't care, well, my apologies, but other people expressed interest so I'm doing it. @alucardtnuoc This is for you sir.

First off, I'm not just simming the neck. I also got an 870 Gnawed Thumb Ring today, which is the ring with 5% magic damage on use. My other rings are 880, the Braided Silver Ring and the Dreadful Cyclopean Signet so it's ilvl and slightly better itemization vs the on use. I had two main goals from this session. Goal 1 was to determine the highest possible dps I could achieve with Zeal+BoW, as that is my preferred talent combination in most situations due to the competitive single target with decent cleave. Goal 2 was to determine the absolute highest single target dps that can be achieved with my current gear. In cases where there's less than a 1% difference in dps between builds I will look first at which provides better cleave and then after that which provides higher survivability and utility, taking into account things such as raw ilvl, the defensive passive on the neck, versatility and tertiaries. In the incredibly unlikely event that all of that ends up equal between 2 builds, I will chose the one with higher haste as I prefer to play with high haste both because it's more fun and because I find it easier to play, and everyone makes mistakes from time to time so a more simple rotation is a good thing.

So to start off I made 8 sim profiles and ran them all once to get a starting point. All sims were done with 50k iterations and scaling unless otherwise noted. A note on the iterations, in my experience 50k is a nice middle ground between being incredibly accurate and not taking a year to finish. There's generally a variance of around 50 dps at 50k iterations. In the 8 profiles I made, I swapped out the Braided Silver Ring for the Gnawed Thumb Ring where applicable as I was already quite low on haste. Here's my battle net, so you can see the other gear I was wearing. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Azivir/simple

Profile 1: Control with Zeal+BoW, 384518 dps, vers 9.7 > crit 8.84 > mastery 6.93 > haste 1.51
Profile 2: GTR with Zeal+BoW, 382674 dps, vers 9.88 > crit 8.56 > mastery 6.94 > haste 2.74
Profile 3: legendary neck with Zeal+BOW, 379584 dps, haste 12.52 > vers 9.55 > crit 8.84 > mastery 6.67
Profile 4: GTR+legendary neck with Zeal+BoW 383306 dps, haste 10.72 > vers 9.95 > crit 8.79 > mastery 6.84
Profile 5: 1 with VB build, 389469 dps, vers 9.85 > crit 9.52 > haste 8.08 > mastery 7.01
Profile 6: 2 with VB build, 390001 dps, vers 9.99 > crit 9.23 > haste 8.26 > mastery 7.04
Profile 7: 3 with VB build, 387896 dps, haste 10.38 > vers 9.79 crit >9.7 > mastery 6.9
Profile 8: 4 with VB build, 388466 dps, haste 10.55 > vers 10.05 > crit 9.35 > mastery 6.9

I'm gonna ignore the VB stuff for the time being and talk about what I noticed concerning the Zeal+BoW sims. The legendary neck and the Gnawed Thumb Ring both compared poorly to the control, but, they performed better together than they did separately. I'm not quite sure why this is, but it probably has to do with fluctuating haste values. My haste is quite low with my new gear, and as can be seen by the low haste value on the control, I was right at the threshold of a breakpoint. I was actually using a haste enchant on one ring and a vers enchant on another, as I found through sims a single haste enchant was enough to push haste down fro around 14.5 to its current value. In short, the control is highly optimized, and there's some fine tuning to do with the other builds. When I actually did these sims I went a bit mad scientist and jumped around a lot, so I'm not necessarily presenting the data in the order it was obtained in. I dicked around with changing out the Dreadful Cyclopean Signet instead of the Braided Silver Ring for a few hours. I found that in all cases, dropping even more haste did not yield good results. Haste levels lower than 15% had haste with a very high value in all cases, and the dps was substantially lower. I can post those results if anyone cares, but I assure you, it was mostly a waste of 2 hours.

But I'm digressing. Back to Zeal+BoW talk! Obviously the lack of haste hurts except in the case of profile 2. Haste's value is still quite high on profile 4. I had a versatility gem in the legendary neck and a versatility enchant on one of the rings. I swapped some enchants/gems around and re-simmed those profiles.

Profile 2 re-sim: 383367 dps, haste 10.71 > vers 9.9 > crit 8.7 > mastery 6.86
Profile 3 re-sim: 382748 dps, vers 9.74 > crit 8.95 > haste 8.61 > mastery 6.71
Profile 4 re-sim: 383416 dps, haste 10.52 > vers 9.81 > crit 8.69 > mastery 6.75

Better, but the best of those profiles fails to reach the control in dps. It's still true that the Gnawed Thumb Ring and the legendary neck are performing better together than separately. Haste's value is still quite high, but with this gear it's not really possible for me to stack more haste atm. Sims I've done in the past have shown, not just the legendary neck, but mastery gear in general, to perform much better at around 23% haste. I have more crit than God right now and not much in the way of haste, so naturally the gap between TFoJ+VB is widening, as I had it down to about 700 with some of my older gear, and now the gap is wide enough to actually matter in some cases.

I do have a couple trinkets I could swap in, but between simming all this shit and making this forum post, this has taken more time than I would care to admit. I think my next step will actually be getting my gear to a place where mastery is not quite as bad. So from this I can determine that there's 3 dungeons I need to be focusing on, Black Rook Hold, CoS and Arcway. BRH for the Spiked Counterweight, as my Darkmoon Deck is lagging behind anyway, and shifting some crit to haste would probably benefit me hugely. There's also the 2 piece shoulders and chest. Not only do those both have significant amounts of haste, but the proc being versatility is quite nice with how high the value of vers is for me right now.

Assuming I don't get any of those pieces before my next raid, I'm on the fence about what to use. An ~1100 dps difference is less than 1%, so it does fall within the range where I start seriously looking at survivability and utility. There's also the VB build to consider, as it's pulling ahead by quite a bit and it's questionable if the cleave would be worth it on a fight like mythic Ursoc.

If anyone has any questions I'll be happy to answer them, though I may not get to them for awhile.

- - - Updated - - -

Howdie, for those interested regarding haste:


The initial haste breakpoint is 18%. Here's why:

New GCD:
1.5 / 1.18 = 1.271

Cast 6 abilities:
6 * 1.271 = 7.627 Judgment still up!

Cast one more:
7 * 1.271 = 8.898 Judgment down now

Judgment hasted CD:
12 / 1.18 = 10.168

One more ability:
8 * 1.271 = 10.168 judge back up!

As you can see, with 18% haste you have just enough to cram one more ability in the Judgment window, and lose only 1 gcd outside of it. Any less haste, and you will miss 1 ability. Any more haste will not give you an extra ability, so there is little point other than giving you some wiggle room to account for latency.


The next big breakpoint is 35%. Same logic.

New GCD:
1.5 / 1.35 = 1.111

Cast 7 abilities:
7 * 1.111 = 7.777 Judgment still up!

Judgment hasted CD:
12 / 1.35 = 8.888

One more ability:
8 * 1.111 = 8.888 Judgment back up!

As you can see, with 35% haste you'll be able to keep Judgment up all the time without ever losing a gcd. There is some merit for 30% because even though Judgment won't have 100% uptime, often (but not always) you'll need 1 additional GCD anyway for you CS or BoW. 35% is the king, but 30% isn't too bad.


So what about in-between?

Although anything in-between 18 and 35% won't change your globals, often (but not always!) it's still better than mastery at this gear level for single target, due to a more smooth rotation and auto attack. However, after reaching 18%, haste will deteriorate so rapidly that crit and even versatility becomes a much stronger stat. Generally, I would advise to stay around 18-19% to account for latency, then focus on crit/versatility, but either way simming after every single drop will be a must to determine which item is best for your character at that time. ^^


My apologies for bumping in, I just hope it helps some people. :3

Elly out o/

There's definitely a big breakpoint around 23% as well, where haste's value shoots up to over 14 for a few hundred rating then drops below 3 after that. In general, haste also seems be a lot more steady with its value when running VB.

[Deleted]

I'll keep an eye out for it when I get to that point, cheers. I'm curious to find out why!

[Vanderhuge]

10/25/16 - RIP in pepperonis current Crusade, we hardly knew ye.

[Deleted]

if every1 will start complain about new crusade they will not change it. the best is to put hw as pvp talent, new crusade in hw spot and keep old crusade as it is.

[Deleted]

if every1 will start complain about new crusade they will not change it. the best is to put hw as pvp talent, new crusade in hw spot and keep old crusade as it is.

Yep that should be done, but you know we cant even complain about that rets cant reach 15 stacks in time without BL with the new crusade, because of blizz removed the max stacks lul. Lets have some fun with RNG (hi DP) with the patch and a pretty decent dps nerf

[Deleted]

I dont think the main haste value provider is how many spenders u will be able to fit during a judge window. Pausing to wait for 2 secs for a new judge window to appear is not the keypoint. Its the balance between constantly generating without having abilities waiting out of cd and spending during the judge window that hold the key of haste value when trying to weigh it using different talents.

[Morally Grey Storm]

so BoSanc and Pure of Heart nerfs.
These are some pretty questionable moves.
BoSanc one even more so.

[TheZ]

Do we know yet if the 4pc effect will stack with fires of justice?

As a side note simcraft for some reason is divine storming single target if i change skill from elite to good, which seems very odd.

[Deleted]

Do we know yet if the 4pc effect will stack with fires of justice?

As a side note simcraft for some reason is divine storming single target if i change skill from elite to good, which seems very odd.

Because changing the type of player to anything other than elite just assumes you're a muppet. Have to bear in mind that it's not worth anyone's time coming up with a detailed model for a poorer quality player when the theorycrafters have enough on their plate modelling things as it is.