Havoc in Legion: 7.2.5 Guide

[Deleted]

This guide will cover whatever is the current best.

As that is future content that's not implemented (and has already been said and failed to touch the actual reason that you take it) this guide will continue to suggest demon blades.

Demonic Appetite has the problem of not proc'ing 20% off demons right now. Could be hotfixed, could not be hotfixed. Even without that, Prepared will still be a better talent in that row, as it once again gives you the most essential thing about damage buffs: control.

Don't you think they will make it momentum a bit easier? Cuz they just said on the Q/A "Demon Hunters are a simpler class so there won't be such a huge gap between the best and worst players." Which means Momentum requires skills for my perspective atleast, I was thinking more like if they're buffing "Momentum" like increases the timer to like 6 or something else, but who knows it might still be the same I just dislikes it won't be able to use on every fight on Mythic or maybe you can, but by the looks of it, seems kinda hard to be able to perform on every boss on Mythic (Raiding that is)

[Vanyali]

Don't you think they will make it momentum a bit easier? Cuz they just said on the Q/A "Demon Hunters are a simpler class so there won't be such a huge gap between the best and worst players." Which means Momentum requires skills for my perspective atleast, I was thinking more like if they're buffing "Momentum" like increases the timer to like 6 or something else, but who knows it might still be the same I just dislikes it won't be able to use on every fight on Mythic or maybe you can, but by the looks of it, seems kinda hard to be able to perform on every boss on Mythic (Raiding that is)

It's really not that hard to begin with

Honestly, it's a "once you wrap your head around it, you got it" kinda deal.

The only bosses I had any difficulty with it during testing (and this has been said by others in the discord) were Star Augur (mythic) and Krosus - Star Augur's mythic mechanic being very detrimental to movement at all around other people and Krosus having a ledge you can fly off of, so just requires a bit more attention. Both of which would be fine to use Nem on anyway, as the difference ST isn't that great unless you're 100% optimal.

But what they said in the QA is largely correct; there's no, say, feral john madden in WoTLK that would separate the men from the boys.

[Deleted]

It's really not that hard to begin with

Honestly, it's a "once you wrap your head around it, you got it" kinda deal.

The only bosses I had any difficulty with it during testing (and this has been said by others in the discord) were Star Augur (mythic) and Krosus - Star Augur's mythic mechanic being very detrimental to movement at all around other people and Krosus having a ledge you can fly off of, so just requires a bit more attention. Both of which would be fine to use Nem on anyway, as the difference ST isn't that great unless you're 100% optimal.

But what they said in the QA is largely correct; there's no, say, feral john madden in WoTLK that would separate the men from the boys.

Yeah true, once you learn how to master it will be quite easy, but I'm talkin more about "casual players" and those who are having a hard time with even Unholy DK when you used BoS or Sub Rogue even, most ppl couldn't even handle those even when it was quite easy to master, maybe it's not the same thing as Momentum, dunno but it feels like Momentum should atleast be harder from my perspective :P <3 But I wouldn't mind if it stays the same, I hope we get to see the tuning this Tuesday !

[Vanyali]

Yeah true, once you learn how to master it will be quite easy, but I'm talkin more about "casual players" and those who are having a hard time with even Unholy DK when you used BoS or Sub Rogue even, most ppl couldn't even handle those even when it was quite easy to master, maybe it's not the same thing as Momentum, dunno but it feels like Momentum should atleast be harder from my perspective :P <3 But I wouldn't mind if it stays the same, I hope we get to see the tuning this Tuesday !

Ah. Well.

TBH, casual players aren't gonna figure much into tuning. Mostly because.. well, they're casual (<3 Una) and aren't generally looking toward optimal stuff. They tend to go more for fun, or flashy, or whatever. That being said, momentum isn't hard to master; the only hard part would be keeping the uptime to >50% or >65% (talent pending) while not dying to raid mechanics.

I doubt there will be serious tuning to make momentum a big(ger) step forward from nemesis though, as while it is a risk reward pushing it too far forward would be hugely penalizing people that can't (lag; server distance; things outside their control) play momentum.

[Deleted]

Ah. Well.

TBH, casual players aren't gonna figure much into tuning. Mostly because.. well, they're casual (<3 Una) and aren't generally looking toward optimal stuff. They tend to go more for fun, or flashy, or whatever. That being said, momentum isn't hard to master; the only hard part would be keeping the uptime to >50% or >65% (talent pending) while not dying to raid mechanics.

I doubt there will be serious tuning to make momentum a big(ger) step forward from nemesis though, as while it is a risk reward pushing it too far forward would be hugely penalizing people that can't (lag; server distance; things outside their control) play momentum.

Yeah maybe not, about your BiS pre-raid, isn't Darkmoon trinket bis pre-raid or?

[Vanyali]

Yeah maybe not, about your BiS pre-raid, isn't Darkmoon trinket bis pre-raid or?

It's not that great for us - if you can't get a trinket at all get it, but try to get the other ones

[Deleted]

It's not that great for us - if you can't get a trinket at all get it, but try to get the other ones

Ah okay, thanks I thought it would be BiS but that might help me out of going another profession then :P

[Mefistophelis]

How good is the max upgraded Alchemist Stone?

[Radhium]

Nice job Van and congratulation but I've two questions about the priority list ! On single target we should use throw glaive and fury of the illidari on metamorphosis only when we have finish to dump our fury with annihilation or we spam annihilation during all the metamorphosis and we don't care about the throw glaive and fury of the illidari ? And the "empty fury only" for the throw glaive and fury of the illidari apply also when we are out of metamorphosis or we use them whatever our level of fury ?

I've some questions too for the 2+ targets, chaos strike is above death sweep and blade dance and the 3 spells use fury, so it's mean we don't care at all about death sweep and blade dance and we spam chaos strike ? (So death sweep and blade dance are just worth it with 4+ target in comparaison with chaos strike and annihilation ?)

[Vanyali]

How good is the max upgraded Alchemist Stone?

Middle the pack

Nice job Van and congratulation but I've two questions about the priority list ! On single target we should use throw glaive and fury of the illidari on metamorphosis only when we have finish to dump our fury with annihilation or we spam annihilation during all the metamorphosis and we don't care about the throw glaive and fury of the illidari ? And the "empty fury only" for the throw glaive and fury of the illidari apply also when we are out of metamorphosis or we use them whatever our level of fury ?

I've some questions too for the 2+ targets, chaos strike is above death sweep and blade dance and the 3 spells use fury, so it's mean we don't care at all about death sweep and blade dance and we spam chaos strike ? (So death sweep and blade dance are just worth it with 4+ target in comparaison with chaos strike and annihilation ?)

Glaive should be used when:

1) you have no fury to spend on annihilation
2) you're about to cap charges

In or out of meta. Fury should be used ST only if there are no adds coming soon and you're empty fury.

DS / BD are only good when you have 4+ targets, so use chaos strike / TG / fury until you hit that cap

[Radhium]

Thanks for the answer !

[defury]

So momentum won't beat Nemesis unless you plan to be almost constantly in melee range doing it? Like if you do Momentum the lazy way and just vault/rush you are better off not doing the build at all right?

[Vanyali]

So momentum won't beat Nemesis unless you plan to be almost constantly in melee range doing it? Like if you do Momentum the lazy way and just vault/rush you are better off not doing the build at all right?

eh?

You shouldn't ever be out of melee range with momentum. Using the methods shown in the guide you will be in melee range at all times (at most you'd lose one auto-attack with a VR when you camera-turn).

It doesn't depend on animation cancelling at all; animation cancelling is just a really good way to get the entire spec nerfed to the ground by abusing it for higher damage.

[Echil46]

Honestly, this "jump, turn mid air and use VR through the boss to stay in melee range" is a bit counter intuitive. I mean, i've tried and tried again, but the "logical" and "intuitive" way of using VR is like using Disengage. You back up then get back into the fight.

If, right from the very begining, they had this idea of a spell that would make the demon hunter jump from A to B, getting buffed through the process, then from B to C to refresh, and so on and so forth, they should have called it Vault. I mean I understand the idea behind it(finally, took me some time). But a mechanic that would make you jump on the other side of your target would have been more interesting and less of a nuisance to grasp. You'd have to master from where you'd start your jump, to avoid facing it, for example.

But again, i suppose that the Momentum build is the only way left to differenciate good from bad players. I just find it unnecessarily complicated/counter intuitive.

Edit: Tho, the whole "jump and turn mid air" reminds me of a skill that used to differenciate good and bad hunters back in vanilla, one you'd use to kite mobs (aah that Rok'delar quest chain). So between a mechanic that ressembles Disengage, and the need to master this hole jumpshot thing, it makes sense for a demon hunter.

[Jhos]

Honestly, this "jump, turn mid air and use VR through the boss to stay in melee range" is a bit counter intuitive. I mean, i've tried and tried again, but the "logical" and "intuitive" way of using VR is like using Disengage. You back up then get back into the fight.

If, right from the very begining, they had this idea of a spell that would make the demon hunter jump from A to B, getting buffed through the process, then from B to C to refresh, and so on and so forth, they should have called it Vault. I mean I understand the idea behind it(finally, took me some time). But a mechanic that would make you jump on the other side of your target would have been more interesting and less of a nuisance to grasp. You'd have to master from where you'd start your jump, to avoid facing it, for example.

But again, i suppose that the Momentum build is the only way left to differenciate good from bad players. I just find it unnecessarily complicated/counter intuitive.

Edit: Tho, the whole "jump and turn mid air" reminds me of a skill that used to differenciate good and bad hunters back in vanilla, one you'd use to kite mobs (aah that Rok'delar quest chain). So between a mechanic that ressembles Disengage, and the need to master this hole jumpshot thing, it makes sense for a demon hunter.

The jump mid air is used by hunter using disengage and by the demon hunters using VR to reach your desired point in less time (with momentum you gain the buff obviously).That's not a momentum only "skill" ,that's necessary to all DHs (and hunters) to move properly through a fight or even while questing.
Obviously if you have fel rush available is simpler but you may not have a charge avilable,or you want to store it for something else or you simply want to rush as far as possible (maybe in arena or to escape) using all FR charges and VR.
i think that's a simple "skill" to obtain if you practice a little and all DH players should know how to do it.

[BurningBurns]

Trying to get the WAs that are in that gif. Went to discord but link for Kib's WA's aren't working. Can someone send me the link? And is it just the fury bar or the whole set?

[Mannic]

Just go to the WA thread and get it from there? the pastebin worked on there for the fury bar at least.

[pettski]

If the target have normal/small hit box, how do you still use fr/momentum? Since without animation canceling you just seem to rush to the end of the world. So do you just pick something else for small targets? Obviously understand that it works great with big targets since you will be pretty much in range after, if not very very close. So how about normal/smaller targets?
-sorry for multi post, just want to clear it out

[Echil46]

The jump mid air is used by hunter using disengage and by the demon hunters using VR to reach your desired point in less time (with momentum you gain the buff obviously).That's not a momentum only "skill" ,that's necessary to all DHs (and hunters) to move properly through a fight or even while questing.
Obviously if you have fel rush available is simpler but you may not have a charge avilable,or you want to store it for something else or you simply want to rush as far as possible (maybe in arena or to escape) using all FR charges and VR.
i think that's a simple "skill" to obtain if you practice a little and all DH players should know how to do it.

It's fairly easy to do, once you get used to moving the camera around. Setting the camera on Never adjust camera helps a lot on that matters. I was just pointing out the unnecessary complication of a skill so important in our rotation. But it's like Walock gates or tp, or rogues jumping around. It requires preparation. And in a few months we'll be so used to it we won't remember a time we thought it was a hard thing to do. Yet, some hunters still have a hard time pulling of a mid jump- disengage.

[Jhos]

It's fairly easy to do, once you get used to moving the camera around. Setting the camera on Never adjust camera helps a lot on that matters. I was just pointing out the unnecessary complication of a skill so important in our rotation. But it's like Walock gates or tp, or rogues jumping around. It requires preparation. And in a few months we'll be so used to it we won't remember a time we thought it was a hard thing to do. Yet, some hunters still have a hard time pulling of a mid jump- disengage.

Yes i know it is easy,but people seems to be scared by the "weird camera jump trick"