Have addons indirectly ruined the game ?

[Matian]

Being mainly a pvp player I only use pvp related addons which help massively. I can see how things like DBM would spoil boss fights in pve as it straight up announces whats coming next instead of learning the fight.

[Rhoe]

Being mainly a pvp player I only use pvp related addons which help massively. I can see how things like DBM would spoil boss fights in pve as it straight up announces whats coming next instead of learning the fight.

Not really. Many boss abilities have a cooldown rather than an exact timer. For example allure on Archimonde works that way. Allure is an ability that picks up all the green fire from the floor and puts it under random ranged, so everyone has to move. If you start moving when the bossmods allure timer is down to 0, it's almost certainly before the ability is cast, which means you're likely to put the green fire under where the ranged are moving to, which might not cause a wipe, but likely waste a combatres or two. (And just to be clear, I'm obviously not talking about mythic.)

And even with abilities that do have an exact timer, what good does it do you that DBM is screaming at you on Zakuun that you have seed and you need to move if you don't know where to? I've seen clearly confused people who obviously don't know the fight and are just following the bossmod commands run into really stupid places where they do more harm than if they hadn't moved at all. Having a bossmod is no replacement for learning all but the most easy fights.

Besides, just like organized pvp, organized raiding isn't mainly about reacting, but about having a plan, adjusting that plan when something goes slightly wrong and communicating to make sure that everyone is on the same page. If you go in without a plan, you're already behind. Or would you say it's "spoiling" the fight if you're doing 3s and tell your healer that you're gonna eat the stun before it happens?

[MattEffect]

Are you saying addons brought us LFR? I don't see why that would be the case. Please explain.

If addons are responsible for making raiding more difficult, then LFR was introduced to appeal to non-addon reliant players as an entry level to raiding.

[Youn]

Addon's didn't bring us LFR. The fact that only 3% of players finished the original Naxramus and they had to recycle the entire instance brought us LFR. When less then 5% of the community is doing something that took most of the man hours to do. They had to find some way for the populous to do it. LFR made it so everyone no matter what got to see their content.

Addon's do make the high end raiding possible but aren't totally required. If they weren't there, there would still be 2-3% of the population completing mythic.

[HappyCola]

If you judge a product by how clean the code is and not the net result then you've never worked in the field professionally or worked at a level very high.
It's nice to have clean code -- it's something to be proud of but clean code does not dictate a professional level release. There is more to being called professional than just clean code. It's the whole product, top to bottom. Not just the parts you have an erection over.

Except nowhere did I say I only judge a product by the code quality. So I don't get the point of your strawman. And my argument stands, many addons, like BigWigs are done to a higher professional standards than Blizzard's Lua code, for example. That includes everything including the functionality, UX, development processes, code quality, etc.

[Timberwind]

I actually meant glad or #1 pvp capable players if all it took was the right addons. Also you are absolutely wrong on them not using addons - they have weak auras for everything. I am not sure if I am buying 30 wipes for archimonde mythic but still if that's the case I suppose you must have been prodigies in previous raids as well as again I don't see any evidence for those raids becoming easier.

Didn't say Mythic Archi, nice one though, you didn't mention PVP at all in your original post.

[Deleted]

Topic that has been discussed for years. check
Stupid analogy that does not make sense to prove point. check

[Timberwind]

He's lying. This is his Warrior and he's 6/13M. (Proof: He mentions having a 733 Warrior.)

But you know, add-ons 2 stronk, game 2 ez. :^)

Didn't say that I did Mythic, that was an assumption by the other clown, now I know that you didn't read anything either.

[cFortyfive]

Didn't say Mythic Archi, nice one though, you didn't mention PVP at all in your original post.

I thought it wouldn't be that hard to discern from context that the #1 was supposed to mean more players capable of attaining the unique glad title when all what's needed is just a bunch of addons that are not against the tos but I suppose I expected too much. If addons made everything so easy how is it you can't even get 13/13m during the prepatch ?

[Rhoe]

If addons are responsible for making raiding more difficult, then LFR was introduced to appeal to non-addon reliant players as an entry level to raiding.

While there's some logic to your statement, I doubt that's true. Blizzard has said LFR is for people who wouldn't normally raid, and while I'm sure that includes people who play so casually that they don't look up information about the game and thus aren't even aware that addons exist, I'm also sure plenty of them do use addons, and that the reason they're in LFR is because they don't have regular enough hours for a raiding guild, not social enough to want to do guilds or pugs or aware of their own lack of skill and how the normal+ raiding population reacts to it. In fact, right now, a whole bunch of my friends have started to play WoW again, and they're doing LFR. Why? Not because they're too lazy to install addons, but because they are far too undergeared for normal+ and just want to see the raids before the expansion is over. Most of them haven't played since early Cata and are kind of both pleased and disgusted that LFR even exists.

While I personally dislike LFR, I can certainly understand why it's in the game. And who am I to say that just because I think raiding should be difficult, someone else who cannot watch for fire under their feet while clicking their way to 15th on the damage meter shouldn't be allowed to have their fun? It's not like LFR being in the game removes mythic.

[MattEffect]

I can certainly understand why it's in the game.

Me too, I'm not trying to make negative comments about LFR.. I'm just using it as a counter argument to "the game has become more difficult" because of addons. It has at the highest level Mythic, but at the lowest level LFR, these mechanics are reduced to nothing and the game has become easier. If BossMods is credited with allowing new and interesting mechanics, then they are also indirectly responsible for these mechanics being nerfed into nothing for entry level players.

You don't need addons for LFR but having them is acceptable(assumption of most LFR guild standards.) You are required to have them for Mythic and not having them is unacceptable(assumption of most mythic guild standards.) I could make a case that Normal and Heroic are addon breeding grounds; As you progress in difficulty and become more proficient and dependent on addons, your increased interaction with addons will bring you closer to finalizing a customized UI. How many Mythic raiders in your guild have fully customized their UI? all of them

Again for reference; I use Weak Auras, DBM, and Recount. Weak Auras is a god tier addon and I can't imagine raiding without it.

[ElDoorO]

Except nowhere did I say I only judge a product by the code quality. So I don't get the point of your strawman. And my argument stands, many addons, like BigWigs are done to a higher professional standards than Blizzard's Lua code, for example. That includes everything including the functionality, UX, development processes, code quality, etc.

You implied it due to your wording, perhaps you simply worded poorly though. There is no straw man here -- I'm not sure you understand how that logical fallacies work. At this point I'm quite sure you're defensive and have nothing else to contribute to the conversation. You are no longer able to be objective in this discussion with me. Have a good day/night.

[Feeline10]

Actually Blizzard has stated they design encounters with DBM in mind.

By this Blizzard means, they know everyone will be using it.. so they're trying to make mechanics which, even with DBM running, still make you think and could still easily wipe. They know everyone uses DeadlyBossMods, so they make boss fights in such a way that mechanics can bypass the "Look out little girl," or things of this nature. Same thing with GTFO.

[HappyCola]

You are no longer able to be objective in this discussion with me.

You have yet to contribute anything at all, except your baseless judgements about the quality of an addon whose code you have never looked at, design that you do not know and development practices that you have no clue about. So yes, it is pointless to continue discussing this with you.

[Timberwind]

I thought it wouldn't be that hard to discern from context that the #1 was supposed to mean more players capable of attaining the unique glad title when all what's needed is just a bunch of addons that are not against the tos but I suppose I expected too much. If addons made everything so easy how is it you can't even get 13/13m during the prepatch ?

Its not easy to discern something completely differant from what you're talking about, You're not half as clever as you think you are, I'd go back and quote what you said as reference, but really i don't care anymore. You must just be a kid, changing arguments in the middle of other arguments, and missing the point entirely. You're the type of person that needs an add-on to play the game, so Its understandable why you would argue against their removal, and to borrow from you're arrogance, sometimes foreigners just don't understand how to argue with facts. (Because of your American comments earlier, because you're sure to say somethign dumb following this anyway.)
PS. I stopped raiding after Gorefiend because of boredom, If i cared even one iota I'd go get 13/13 but where is the challange or reward in doing so? Much rather finish out some extra hundreds for the options during legion.

[cFortyfive]

changing argument

I didn't change anything. My first post was disputing the laughable exaggeration the op made about addons playing the game for you and how trivial everything got as a result.
There is no evidence that the game has become easier because of addons in the relevant parts of the game since they have been tuned accordingly or skill in general has increased. If everything got so easy there should be at least some form of evidence proving that but if anything effort put into boss kills has only increased despite better addons. Competition in pvp might have stagnated a bit for there being a lot better alternative games out there but I knew season1 glads who keyboard turned so I doubt it could have gotten much worse. Also it's still not like you are just installing gladius, set up a couple macros and you are good to go for the #1 glad titles.
Obviously feel free to perform the mental gymnastics required to delude yourself into believing his opinion or yours somehow is a fact same way you seem to have convinced yourself anyone would claim addons aren't helpful.
Btw more a general suggestion if you try to add value to your opinion by mentioning your experience you might want to make sure that the char you are playing shows some of that.

[Cubcake]

I was incredibly baffled how they managed to update a raid like MC where you could cleanse debuffs almost instantly (I remember spamming decursive on my mage on the relevant bosses like mad), but forgot that now all classes have long CDs to cleansing. They might just as well have given the whole raid a permanent debuff for the whole fight with such a situation.

Yea, I kinda laughed at that while bashing my head against my keyboard for that oversight. It was still doable tho.