Virtually Immortal and actually Immortal

[Qualia]

Sorry but you're just wrong. Literally any fictional universe has immortality as endless life, not invincibility.

I was giving you the definition of the word. Immortality means the ability to live forever - you can check it yourself with any dictionary or just use Google for it. If you can die, that means you don't have endless life. Thus, you don't have true immortality. Just because "literally any fictional universe" (that you read / watched, maybe) has immortality as longevity (unaging / ageless) doesn't make it true immortality. I, for one, have read plenty of stories in which immortality means you are both ageless and night-invulnerable instead of only one of the two.

You can see a list of different immortality types used in fictions here (click) for reference. Just because everything you read used a certain type, it doesn't change the meaning of *true* (absolute / complete) immortal.

If you can die of old age, you're not immortal. You're not virtually immortal, whatever that means. (seriously "virtually immortal" is the stupidest description ever). Some species only live for 5 years, some species live for over 100 years. That doesn't mean we're "virtually immortal" in the eyes of hamsters because of a longer life span. A life span = mortality.

Obviously that is not immortal. No one said you are immortal if you can die of old age. No offense, but do you understand what "virtually" means? It means "almost" - to save you the time looking it up. "Virtually immortal" means "almost immortal" / "nearly immortal". It's what it means, clearly not immortal, but close to.

And yes, we are virtually immortal in the eyes of the hamster if our lifespan is hundreds or thousands time longer than theirs (we aren't, though). Is that supposed to be wrong? Heck, even real life scientists are claiming we can be virtually immortal soon when our technology allows us to extend our life considerably or transfer our personality / memories into a backup device. Apparently people don't consider that term as stupid as you think it is.

[Deleted]

I was giving you the definition of the word. Immortality means the ability to live forever - you can check it yourself with any dictionary or just use Google for it. If you can die, that means you don't have endless life. Thus, you don't have true immortality. Just because "literally any fictional universe" (that you read / watched, maybe) has immortality as longevity (unaging / ageless) doesn't make it true immortality. I, for one, have read plenty of stories in which immortality means you are both ageless and night-invulnerable instead of only one of the two.

You can see a list of different immortality types used in fictions here (click) for reference. Just because everything you read used a certain type, it doesn't change the meaning of *true* (absolute / complete) immortal.


Obviously that is not immortal. No one said you are immortal if you can die of old age. No offense, but do you understand what "virtually" means? It means "almost" - to save you the time looking it up. "Virtually immortal" means "almost immortal" / "nearly immortal". It's what it means, clearly not immortal, but close to.

And yes, we are virtually immortal in the eyes of the hamster if our lifespan is hundreds or thousands time longer than theirs (we aren't, though). Is that supposed to be wrong? Heck, even real life scientists are claiming we can be virtually immortal soon when our technology allows us to extend our life considerably or transfer our personality / memories into a backup device. Apparently people don't consider that term as stupid as you think it is.

I know how definitions work but you're misunderstanding it. Immortal is able to live forever UNLESS OTHERWISE killed.

Virtually immortal is a stupid term, you either are or aren't. If I can live hundreds of thousands of years longer than you, that is NOT immortal, not even "virtually" immortal. I'm just NOT immortal. I just happen to be able to live a lot longer than you, which in the grand scheme of things in the universe, is still barely the blink of an eye.

Agree to disagree really from this point on I guess.

[Qualia]

I know how definitions work but you're misunderstanding it. Immortal is able to live forever UNLESS OTHERWISE killed.

But it isn't. It's ability to live forever. Period. What you was saying (ability to live forever unless otherwise killed) is categorized as Biological Immortality. Obviously, many fictions would just call it as immortality, but that doesn't change the fact that it isn't true immortality (according to the definition of the word) - which is another type.
It's the same with omnipotent, there are many characters in fictions are called omnipotent, but only a few are actually true / absolute omnipotent, thus we have various types / level of omnipotent other than true omnipotent.

As of the virtually immortal matter, I guess we have to agree to disagree as you said. Although I'm not sure how it is stupid, virtually immortal means you aren't immortal. It doesn't mean you are kind of immortal, but kind of not.

[Aquamonkey]

It wasn't stated anywhere that the Draenei are immortal. It's a lot more likely that they are just another long-lived race that age extremely slowly.

It's heavily implied. Name one draenei that has ever died of old age.

Loreology said Draenei are not immortal in general. Some achieved immortality (i.e. Velen or those that joined the Legion).

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Immortals in Warcraft are generally resistant to sickness and injury, but immortality does not confer invulnerability. Immortal beings can still be wounded and even killed. Indeed, many immortals have perished over the course of recorded history, particularly during the War of the Ancients. The death of an immortal is just as real as any mortal death and, barring a few extraordinary cases, just as permanent.

What, then, does the term immortality mean in Warcraft? Immortal creatures essentially stop aging when they reach adulthood, and thus, they cannot die merely from old age. In addition, they tend to be more powerful than most mortal creatures, although this tendency does not always hold true. (WC Encyclopedia)

[Beloren]

Loreology said Draenei are not immortal in general. Some achieved immortality (i.e. Velen or those that joined the Legion).

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Immortals in Warcraft are generally resistant to sickness and injury, but immortality does not confer invulnerability. Immortal beings can still be wounded and even killed. Indeed, many immortals have perished over the course of recorded history, particularly during the War of the Ancients. The death of an immortal is just as real as any mortal death and, barring a few extraordinary cases, just as permanent.

What, then, does the term immortality mean in Warcraft? Immortal creatures essentially stop aging when they reach adulthood, and thus, they cannot die merely from old age. In addition, they tend to be more powerful than most mortal creatures, although this tendency does not always hold true. (WC Encyclopedia)

Yay! Aquamonkey xD ... my second favourite forum person, thanks for the quote btw.

I know some people read that, and some how saw immune to sickeness and injury instead of the Generally resistant that it clearly says. Eyes didn't see invulnerability but blizzard has clarified what it means in their world

I was pointing out in another topic that the definition in-game of some words aren't always the same as in irl, sometimes the context makes it quite clear - race is one such example, there is the scientific irl term, the colloquilal term that varies per country/region you are in, the ing-ame term is not just used in one way either, but it is not strictly the same as in irl terms either. The point is, a person needs to understand what the game means by a certain term, it may be similar to irl, but it isn't always.

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Have anyone else noticed that this retcons dark trolls as these big hulking brutes. Literally the largest, most savage and primitive, but also physically strongest of the troll sub-races to a weak and diminutive species of troll, weaker than the norm, as enhanced strength seems to be part of the deal? Weak AND dumb... Dayum...

we never saw what type of dark trolls became NElves anyway, who's to say there was only one type of dark troll? Dark Troll was probably just the name given to all trolls that were nocturnal, or maybe it was all trolls that were dark hued in skin? who's to say there weren't different groups and several variations? we just don't know. We can only go with what we are told and use common sense to fill in the gaps till more info is given.

it's like the term night elf. Night elves only became night elves when the high elves refer to them as that in common, who would ever call themselves technically night elf.. why the night.. it's like saying you're a day human, you won't name yourself that at all, the only time day human would mean something is if most of the world knew humans as dark skinned nocturnal beings, and so discovering a group that were light skineed and diurnal would therefor classify them as dya humans.

remember we are been told the story from a human perspective, a lot of human knowledge comes from the high elves, to the humans the high eelvs were the Elves, therefore when the Kalimdro lot comes on the scene they call them night elf because htey're nocturnal.

This is why nightborne, highborne, moonguard, court of farondis are all night elf - not because they have to be genetically identical or at least close enough, we already know nightborne are changed a bit further away from night elf, so while similar, they are different, but they are still night elf, because they are still elves of the night. Nocturnal. however the meaning is more accurate when you switch language to the persepectiv eo f he night elves.

the night elves call themselves the Kal'dorei, now the nighborne are no longer kal'dorei but Shal'dorei a new race, see, in darnassian the division is not quite the same, whiles to everyone else they're all night elves, the Kal'dorei have Quel'dorei and Shal'dorei. You have Quel'dorei Kal'dorei and you have Quel'dorei Shal'dorei. So although they are related, even have some common threads, they are two separate cultures Kal'dorei and Shal'dorei, the same is for Kal'dorei and Quel'dorei who live amongst them. Shal'dorei might become a part of the Kal'dorei again, but like the Quel'dorei they will always be their own group. Related but different. Just like Zan'dalari are related but different to Drakkari or Amani, or Mechagnomes and Leper Gnomes are related but different to normal gnomes. what about humans and undead humans?

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This has always bothered me. Its called Longevity, not immortal. Immortal means you cant die period. I hate how people have started referring to longevity as immortal.

I dont think we know how long they live. It might be cool to see an elf actually reaching the end of his life. if they can die of old age, what with magic and stuff they could possibly use to extend their lives.

I think blizzard need to decide then strictly what are night elves, initially they were introduced as immortal. Then they lost their immortality? but now e see draenei who seem immortal, but we don't know, they could just also be very long lived.

maybe chronicles' virtual immortal = real long longevity - you're talking like tens of thousands of years lifespan, that's virtually immortal, as it' an incredibly long life time, and we see this in the high/nightborne and moonguard groups have all been isolated from the Vigil group so they were never linked to Nordrassil and iddn't receive immortality from it, but yet many of them are still alive from 10k years ago.. Totheldrin, Elisande - likely Estualan and Thalyssra too, the Moonguard group too they were there during the war of the ancients.

Sure the arcane usage extends life, but Chronicles says they were transformed into highly intelligent and virtually immortal, - it means their natural state before arcane amplification is actually highly intelligent and virtually immortal. This is why many of the high/nightborne and moonguard are still alive, and the VIgil group gaining immortality from Nordrassil was actual immortality, they stopped aging versus aging very very slowly.

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

It's the same for the Forsaken, Death Knights and the Draenei.

The Forsaken are just dead and start to decay little by little.
Death Knights can be either decaying rapidly or in statis, whatever you're RP-ing
Draenei are just virtually immortal. They canot die by age, but they can by disease or.. well, getting killed.

I like this!

That way, I can RP that my Forsaken and my DK have been around since the 1st war and my Draenei was there when the Eredar joined the burning legion

[Traveler Voltin]

It's the same for the Forsaken, Death Knights and the Draenei.

The Forsaken are just dead and start to decay little by little.
Death Knights can be either decaying rapidly or in statis, whatever you're RP-ing
Draenei are just virtually immortal. They canot die by age, but they can by disease or.. well, getting killed.

I like this!

That way, I can RP that my Forsaken and my DK have been around since the 1st war and my Draenei was there when the Eredar joined the burning legion

forsaken dont decay. they are immortal
death knights are the same way.

[Deleted]

Oh look, the exact definition of Immortality I gave was also in conjunction with Blizzard's definition, live forever unless killed.

[Deleted]

forsaken dont decay. they are immortal
death knights are the same way.

There's literally a book in Acherus about how death knights should manage their rot to look frightening, but make sure their bodyparts stay where they are.

[therealbowser]

Loreology said Draenei are not immortal in general. Some achieved immortality (i.e. Velen or those that joined the Legion).

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Immortals in Warcraft are generally resistant to sickness and injury, but immortality does not confer invulnerability. Immortal beings can still be wounded and even killed. Indeed, many immortals have perished over the course of recorded history, particularly during the War of the Ancients. The death of an immortal is just as real as any mortal death and, barring a few extraordinary cases, just as permanent.

What, then, does the term immortality mean in Warcraft? Immortal creatures essentially stop aging when they reach adulthood, and thus, they cannot die merely from old age. In addition, they tend to be more powerful than most mortal creatures, although this tendency does not always hold true. (WC Encyclopedia)

There is a random-ass draenei in Blood Watch that does not look old at all that is reminiscing about Argus, and I've never seen an aged draenei aside from Velen.

I think we can probably agree that Blizzard simply hasn't put much thought into it.

[Deleted]

There is a random-ass draenei in Blood Watch that does not look old at all that is reminiscing about Argus, and I've never seen an aged draenei aside from Velen.

I think we can probably agree that Blizzard simply hasn't put much thought into it.

Yeah chances are the art department wanted to give Velen an appearance of wisdom and intelligence. No real way to do that without making them look and sound old I guess.

In fact if you think about it, Archimonde and Kil'Jaedan and are the same age as Velen and they don't look as old as he does at all.

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

forsaken dont decay. they are immortal
death knights are the same way.

Check Bobthecrop's reply.

[DemonHunter18]

Yeah chances are the art department wanted to give Velen an appearance of wisdom and intelligence. No real way to do that without making them look and sound old I guess.

In fact if you think about it, Archimonde and Kil'Jaedan and are the same age as Velen and they don't look as old as he does at all.

because they are demons???

[Deleted]

because they are demons???

Fair enough lol. I'm sure there are some Demons out there that have "old" looking features as well though (despite the fact demons don't age).

[DemonHunter18]

Fair enough lol. I'm sure there are some Demons out there that have "old" looking features as well though (despite the fact demons don't age).

probably those who are turned into a demon when they are old will look old. if Velen now turns into a demon then he would have been old looking.

[Qualia]

Oh look, the exact definition of Immortality I gave was also in conjunction with Blizzard's definition, live forever unless killed.

And Blizzard made sure to put it as immortality "in Warcraft". As I said, biological immortality is a type of immortality, but it isn't true / complete immortality. Blizzard pretty much said "we are using this type of immortality when we call something immortal in Warcraft", but we were talking about fictions in general, not limited to one or some franchises / myth, weren't we? We've cleared Blizzard's definition of immortality all the way back in first 2-3 pages, and that's why I said there is no true immortality in WoW.

[Beloren]

And Blizzard made sure to put it as immortality "in Warcraft". As I said, biological immortality is a type of immortality, but it isn't true / complete immortality. Blizzard pretty much said "we are using this type of immortality when we call something immortal in Warcraft", but we were talking about fictions in general, not limited to one or some franchises / myth, weren't we? We've cleared Blizzard's definition of immortality all the way back in first 2-3 pages, and that's why I said there is no true immortality in WoW.

agreed. the only true immortality might be someone like Elune.

[Otaka]

What always bothered me about this is why Velen has a beard and just looks like an old man if they're supposed to be immortal. Or do they choose at which point they stop aging or something.

How would they grow up otherwise? If not age abit first. We have trees on our planet that have lived for a millennia... and they started as a small tree first and nowadays they are huge.
Its not like draenei populate very quickly, they probably give birth to a child every 5000 years or something... not like humans who copulate every day and become a multibillion size nation in mere couple a thousand years.

[Mace]

forsaken dont decay. they are immortal
death knights are the same way.

that's the first i've heard, weren't the forsaken in WC3, introduced as having a very limited and short life..i mean deathspan? part of their wretched situation was to live in this nightmare state and they were soon going to drop dead anyway they are like F*** everything.

I know the corruption ground was changed -- basically beause it was too hard to show in-game, but they have a serious longevity problem. Unless that was also changed... the race was one I did not expect to survive wow to be honest. Just cos of how they were set up. but they change so much. I have forgotten the details, so maybe someone can remind me.

[Aquamonkey]

Hey, lore question: Do Forsaken keep rotting once they're reanimated?
They're in a state of 'preserved decay,' depending on condition when raised. Could live forever if body kept in-tact! (DaveKosak)