is all specs viable in Mythic+ ?

[Deleted]

My issue isn't that people are flat out wrong that ele might not be as strong as some other specs for BLEEDING EDGE progression. My issue, personally, is that there are too many people on these forums and elsewhere who are making out that everyone is playing at a bleeding edge level and so the spec will be utter dogshite, when it actually won't for, let's face it, 99% of the playerbase.

The vast majority of people will be able to play Ele in Legion and be taken to raids as long as they are decent, reliable players. What is slightly irritating is that people like UCanDoSht spend their entire time shitting on the spec on internet forums. If it's so bad for your bleeding edge progression then fine, go and reroll Mage and pester them in their forums.

For most normal people, even people in the average mythic raiding guilds, Elemental will be absolutely fine to take with you.

I do find the amount of "grass is always greener" stuff on internet forums amusing. For example, some people on this thread have mentioned that Hunters do way more damage and so will be more useful in Mythic+. Take a stroll over to the hunter forums where 75% of them are screaming about how all their specs are boring as sin and masses of them are crying that their top DPS talent for MM (Barrage) is going to be unusable in Mythic+ because it pulls the entire instance along with everything in every other instance at the same time.

Specs always ebb and flow. If you want to always do the absolute top damage and always have at least one spec which will be top tier for bleeding edge progression then roll a Mage. Simple as. They've been the golden boys of WoW pretty much forever.

There are always better players though. You only need to look at Wrath Of the Lich King era Ensidia (the guild). Shadow Priests were by no means the best raiding DPS spec in the game yet their SPriests were almost always near the top of damage meters - because those players were just. that. good.

That was a bleeding edge progression guild - they took Spriests because those people were exceptional players. Could those players have done more DPS on a mage? Probably. Did they still get world first 25 man Mimiron Hardmode / Algalon 25? Yup.

TL;DR - unless you are genuinely competing for World firsts / world top 20 kills, you're probably not going to get benched just for being ele. If you are... Find a new guild.

[Deleted]

My issue isn't that people are flat out wrong that ele might not be as strong as some other specs for BLEEDING EDGE progression. My issue, personally, is that there are too many people on these forums and elsewhere who are making out that everyone is playing at a bleeding edge level and so the spec will be utter dogshite, when it actually won't for, let's face it, 99% of the playerbase.

The vast majority of people will be able to play Ele in Legion and be taken to raids as long as they are decent, reliable players. What is slightly irritating is that people like UCanDoSht spend their entire time shitting on the spec on internet forums. If it's so bad for your bleeding edge progression then fine, go and reroll Mage and pester them in their forums.

For most normal people, even people in the average mythic raiding guilds, Elemental will be absolutely fine to take with you.

Is that an excuse to leave Elemental shit compared to Mage? No, it shouldnt be. People like you are making it look like its totally fine to play whatever you like (it is, partly), but dont forget that on the other hand you're not only shitting on your fellow raid members, but also at the same time supporting bad designed specs.

If you disagree with me or with other people elsewhere then its totally fine. Continue doing your thing, but spare us with drama posts filled with trigger words out of the newest soapbox. No one really cares if you play Elemental and feel good about it. My concern is vastly different... I'd like to play Elemental, I love this spec and this game -- but bad devs destroy it for me. They force me into a different class just because I like a certain play style. The world doesnt spin around the 98% really bad WoW players, sorry.

[Deleted]

Is that an excuse to leave Elemental shit compared to Mage? No, it shouldnt be. People like you are making it look like its totally fine to play whatever you like (it is, partly), but dont forget that on the other hand you're not only shitting on your fellow raid members, but also at the same time supporting bad designed specs.

If you disagree with me or with other people elsewhere then its totally fine. Continue doing your thing, but spare us with drama posts filled with trigger words out of the newest soapbox. No one really cares if you play Elemental and feel good about it. My concern is vastly different... I'd like to play Elemental, I love this spec and this game -- but bad devs destroy it for me. They force me into a different class just because I like a certain play style. The world doesnt spin around the 98% really bad WoW players, sorry.

1. I'm not "shitting on my other raid members" at all. My DPS is perfectly competitive with the rest of my raid team and we have fun and kill stuff at our level. We play at a level similar to the majority of the playerbase, i.e where if we're hitting a berserk timer it's because of less than optimal play rather than class balance. We have been raiding since Wrath and have not once hit a major DPS stumbling block that we didn't eventually overcome. Even if Heroic 25 man Festergut made me cry. Are we a mythic progression guild? No. We aren't. I had my time playing at a hardcore level in TBC / Wrath and am done with it now - which is my choice. I totally respect that other people do play for the competition, that's fine. We are focused when we raid and we aim to clear as much as we possibly can. We don't spend alot of time raiding each week but the time we do spend is quality time and we like to play to our best. Could be push mythic progression? Yup. Do we want to? No.

2. Dear lord don't we know that you'd love to play elemental but it's too broken for your guild. We get it. That doesn't mean that whining about it on these forums over and over and saying that the devs are bad is going to fix it. If you are that mad about it.... Roll a Mage. Problem solved.

3. "the world doesn't spin around the 98% really bad WoW players, sorry"
I think you'll find that, actually the opposite is the case. The world doesn't revolve around the top 2%. If Blizzard see 98% of the playerbase playing a variety of classes and killing Mythic raid bosses then they will think job done. They are going to be far less concerned if 2% of the playerbase are benching people just because they could kill a boss 1 week earlier if they played a different class.

The biggest mistake you're making is assuming that 98% of the playerbase are just "really bad" and won't ever reach your level. Consider that, actually, there are ALOT of people out there who are extremely capable players who simply aren't interested in shooting for world top 50 kills. That does not make them "really bad". We've had players in our guild in MoP who, when we were raiding heroic Throne of Thunder, were regularly logging top 5 damage parses for their spec. They were excellent players. They play with us because we're good friends, who've been raiding together for a while and like our relaxed, laid back approach. Just because those players don't raid on the bleeding edge of progression doesn't mean they would be incapable of it. Which is basically what you are suggesting. I've seen what bleeding edge progression does to guilds, I saw it in Tempest Keep, I saw it in SSC, Mount Hyjal, Black Temple. I've got no interest in going down that road again. That does not make me a "really bad player".

[Deleted]

*Waving over to UcanDoSht-senpai*
*Grabbing popcorn*

[Lightning-]

I agree with slashgordon in everything.

[Deleted]

1. I'm not "shitting on my other raid members" at all. My DPS is perfectly competitive with the rest of my raid team and we have fun and kill stuff at our level. We play at a level similar to the majority of the playerbase, i.e where if we're hitting a berserk timer it's because of less than optimal play rather than class balance. We have been raiding since Wrath and have not once hit a major DPS stumbling block that we didn't eventually overcome. Even if Heroic 25 man Festergut made me cry. Are we a mythic progression guild? No. We aren't. I had my time playing at a hardcore level in TBC / Wrath and am done with it now - which is my choice. I totally respect that other people do play for the competition, that's fine. We are focused when we raid and we aim to clear as much as we possibly can. We don't spend alot of time raiding each week but the time we do spend is quality time and we like to play to our best. Could be push mythic progression? Yup. Do we want to? No.

Yeah, and now quit being so ignorant. There are people outside who want to push it, or are on the path already. And we want our favorite classes be competitve for once. Like I said already, I dont talk about guilds like yours - in fact, I couldnt care less. Nor would any change/buff to Elemental ever change your fun at your level.

2. Dear lord don't we know that you'd love to play elemental but it's too broken for your guild. We get it. That doesn't mean that whining about it on these forums over and over and saying that the devs are bad is going to fix it. If you are that mad about it.... Roll a Mage. Problem solved.

Looks like you didnt get it. I do whatever and wherever I want, its up to you to ignore or support me, but now you're just in my way. I'm already playing a mage since late MoP, and Elemental is an alt char. I play every ranged spec in this game, mainly for progression, but Elemental will always be my favourite one.

3. "the world doesn't spin around the 98% really bad WoW players, sorry"
I think you'll find that, actually the opposite is the case. The world doesn't revolve around the top 2%. If Blizzard see 98% of the playerbase playing a variety of classes and killing Mythic raid bosses then they will think job done. They are going to be far less concerned if 2% of the playerbase are benching people just because they could kill a boss 1 week earlier if they played a different class.

Just going to quote something which you didnt unterstand previously:

Is that an excuse to leave Elemental shit compared to Mage? No, it shouldnt be. People like you are making it look like its totally fine to play whatever you like (it is, partly), but dont forget that on the other hand you're not only shitting on your fellow raid members, but also at the same time supporting bad designed specs.

The biggest mistake you're making is assuming that 98% of the playerbase are just "really bad" and won't ever reach your level. Consider that, actually, there are ALOT of people out there who are extremely capable players who simply aren't interested in shooting for world top 50 kills. That does not make them "really bad". We've had players in our guild in MoP who, when we were raiding heroic Throne of Thunder, were regularly logging top 5 damage parses for their spec. They were excellent players. They play with us because we're good friends, who've been raiding together for a while and like our relaxed, laid back approach. Just because those players don't raid on the bleeding edge of progression doesn't mean they would be incapable of it. Which is basically what you are suggesting. I've seen what bleeding edge progression does to guilds, I saw it in Tempest Keep, I saw it in SSC, Mount Hyjal, Black Temple. I've got no interest in going down that road again. That does not make me a "really bad player".

No, its just you putting words in my mouth. I'm not here to teach semantics, nor explain why I stand up for Elemental. Read above - your only choice is to support or ignore me.

[Lightning-]

Read above - your only choice is to support or ignore me.

It's hard to ignore you, you are like a black hole of negativity.

[apelsinjuice]

Obviously its fine to play what ever classs/spec you want as long as your not in the cutting edge top % raiding. But at the same time it feels wrong playing a class/spec you know will effectivly "handicap" you and give you less potential than if you played something else.

[Deleted]

Obviously its fine to play what ever classs/spec you want as long as your not in the cutting edge top % raiding. But at the same time it feels wrong playing a class/spec you know will effectivly "handicap" you and give you less potential than if you played something else.

And yet if everyone felt this way the top raiding guilds would take 18 mages.

[Murderdoll]

I think were all getting past the original question.

Are all specs viable in Mythic+

The answer is yes.

Theres always a but. It depends on how to approach it. Guild groups and "take at our own pace" groups will probably be fine. Noone will take an Ele Shaman to groups pushing the evelope though. Ele Shamans have a very bad stigma and because noone takes them to the pushing groups you will have a hard time finding PUGs.

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And yet if everyone felt this way the top raiding guilds would take 18 mages.

Im not sure if youve seen the logs for the past 6 months but thats what they do.

I also dont know if you saw the logs during progression, there was a distinct lack of Elemental Shaman.

His viewpoint is totally valid and something I share.

Im a skilled player, probably one of the better ones in my guild. When I played Enh early during WoD, I always thought I could be doing much more for my guild.

[Deleted]

It's hard to ignore you, you are like a black hole of negativity.

This forum has an ignore function.

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And yet if everyone felt this way the top raiding guilds would take 18 mages.

That's what they did in the last 6 months.

Also, you don't have to take 18. If a raid has 3 mage slots, which is considered the norm during WoD, then this should be already alarming. Remember that Legion removed buffs.

[Jotaux]

Also, you don't have to take 18. If a raid has 3 mage slots, which is considered the norm during WoD, then this should be already alarming. Remember that Legion removed buffs.

Yeah our raid has three mage spots and when we only had 1-2 for a few raids it made fights like Xhul Horac or Zakuun difficult. One time we had no mages and no rogues for Xhul Horac, that was a pain in the ass. We generally go with 3 mages, 3 rogues, 3 locks, and 3 hunters in our raid team. We have a strict no more shamans policy atm. We already have a resto shaman and I can switch from enhance to resto as needed.

[Morg]

It's hard to ignore you, you are like a black hole of negativity.

And anyone not in the precious 2% of hard core raiding players is a disabled gamer

[Deleted]

you are like a black hole of negativity.

There`s a fine line between negativity and realism. One that most can`t distinguish anymore.

[Yizu]

3. "the world doesn't spin around the 98% really bad WoW players, sorry"
I think you'll find that, actually the opposite is the case. The world doesn't revolve around the top 2%. If Blizzard see 98% of the playerbase playing a variety of classes and killing Mythic raid bosses then they will think job done. They are going to be far less concerned if 2% of the playerbase are benching people just because they could kill a boss 1 week earlier if they played a different class.

That 2% has louder voices compared to that 98% combined. And why do you keep talking about raiding, isnt this thread about mythic + dungeons?

Mythic+ dungeons is totally different from raiding. You cant compensate each others weaknesses in 5 mans as you can in raiding.

[Deleted]

And anyone not in the precious 2% of hard core raiding players is a disabled gamer

It was just a number I've chosen. Fact is, people who are happy picking up flowers and enjoy their lives like they currently are shouldn't participate in such discussions.

I also don't comment on LFR issues, or on whatever people do who don't raid. You don't see me coming into other people class or spec forums/threads. Aswell as you won't see me ever talking about things I don't know.

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There`s a fine line between negativity and realism. One that most can`t distinguish anymore.

I'm like water. Not the type of water Bruce Lee was talking about.

I'm that type of water which floods blind optimism.

[Deleted]

Senpai quoted me! I`m so happy!

Gonna go fap tonight.

[Algoma0]

The sky isnt falling

No, the sky isnt falling. The sky has already fallen, beaten us, benched us, and made us reroll.

And yet if everyone felt this way the top raiding guilds would take 18 mages.

As UcanDoSht already pointed out, they kind of did. 18 is a bit much because you still need healers and tanks, but the best lineup right now would include only mages as dps.

Just look at top20 first kills from the entire WoD expansion. You'll see maybe 3 elementals per boss - 20 guilds, 3 elementals. How many mages? Well, 2-3 per guild? so 40-60?


I've said it back during WoD Alpha, class balance does not matter to 95% of the raiding population. So the argument "my casual guild has 3 elementals, and we have no problem!" doesn't contribute anything. It might even suggest that elemental shamans have been on the same level as mages and warlocks, and that's obviously not the case.
If you are not raiding "bleeding edge", as you've put it, you can obviously still take part in the discussion, but don't ever bring your personal experience into it because, quite frankly, it doesn't mean anything.

[Nebria]

We generally go with 3 mages, 3 rogues, 3 locks, and 3 hunters in our raid team. We have a strict no more shamans policy atm. We already have a resto shaman and I can switch from enhance to resto as needed.

This one says it all. We should applaud for the good class balance in WoD. And be afraid that it continues in Legion. Just a reminder, even Binkenstein, our Ele Math Guy, is switching to a mage for raiding because of import issue with the spec design/performance.

Even if for the most of the playerbase it isn't an issue, you clearly see something is wrong with the balancing and it will effect you sooner or later.
Let it be a PUG for a raid or mythic dungeon. They don't know you, they don't know how good you are, they just see an ele shaman. Of course PUGs will pick the specs to have an easy time. So the chance is high you won't find a group that easy so either you have to start a group by yourself or bring some friends with you.

That doesn't mean you should switch to a mage. That means we have to wake blizzards attention that they have to take a look at ele and hear/read/discuss the concerns we have and not just do their thing and we feel like ignored...

[Spoonman]

Even tho ucandosht might seem like a jerk the guy is actually right in what his saying. I've played beta and been following ele forums during these months and there is really 0% focus on ele from blizzard
The spec lacks a lot more than others and if you care about being competitive you should not be playing elemental
And it hurts me to say this because I really wanted to play the spec in legion



Also this

From my own experience:
Ele is great CURRENTLY with all the Gear in HFC.
Ele is pretty bad at 110 - I dont think a lot of people WILL take elemental shamans with them for mythic+, at least when they're trying to push higher keystone levels. I'd rather take a Mage or a Hunter, both which are better in most situations and have better utility for cheesing things later on.

Also: guys, UcanDoSht is mostly right. Hes an asshole, but he's an asshole thats right 90% of the time.