What is YOUR biggest problem with Legion?

[Moozart]

Did this game really need four more melee specs? Why on earth did they see fit to add another melee class and turn a hunter spec melee?

I'm also highly suspicious of the pvp changes.

i think the hunter melee spec will end up sucking ass compared to the other in PVE and DKS seem to be playing unholy at ranged now from what im reading

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I think my new biggest problem is needing to quest. I'm not much of a quester. I don't like people telling me what to do.

maybe you should reconsider a role plying game? lol

[Claritycraft]

the pruning of certain abilities

[satimy]

Legiondarries
Class balance
No flying

[ItachiZaku]

maybe you should reconsider a role plying game? lol

I like grinding mods and PVP.

[Lumineus]

- Retribution being shit on again
- Artifact Power way too grindy
- Grounded again, Pathfinder locked behind raiding WTF

[Marrilaife]

DKS seem to be playing unholy at ranged now from what im reading

That talent was nerfed recently.

What if you are a casual player?

According to some in that case you should be shat on, stand in SW and drool in awe at the "real" raiders who have epics and tell you "git gud". In the free time you can pick herbs and sell them cheaply so they can make their pots.

Blizzard realized this idea isn't exactly exciting to the majority of their playerbase though.

I don't understand why other RPGs can have difficulty slider from easy / "storytelling" to deadly / nightmare, but 4 raid difficulties in wow suddenly becomes a point of woe.

[Moozart]

That talent was nerfed recently.

According to some in that case you should be shat on, stand in SW and drool in awe at the "real" raiders who have epics and tell you "git gud". In the free time you can pick herbs and sell them cheaply so they can make their pots.

Blizzard realized this idea isn't exactly exciting to the majority of their playerbase though.

I don't understand why other RPGs can have difficulty slider from easy / "storytelling" to deadly / nightmare, but 4 raid difficulties in wow suddenly becomes a point of woe.

Wasn't aware of that DK is the only class i have never/will never have

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- Retribution being shit on again
- Artifact Power way too grindy
- Grounded again, Pathfinder locked behind raiding WTF

can be done inLFR mate

[Marrilaife]

Wasn't aware of that

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/5...ixes-august-1/

Death Knight
Clawing Shadows damage reduced by 25%. PvP damage unchanged.

[Moozart]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/5...ixes-august-1/

Death Knight
Clawing Shadows damage reduced by 25%. PvP damage unchanged.

Still will make them nasty in pvp i guess with that change

[Deleted]

1. Not liking pvp for the same reason as cataclysm (melee uptime) resulting in another expansion i dont pvp.

2. Game will be less balanced this expansion and this i can understand. Despite that being on the shorter end of the straw and than getting disinterested in WoW like TBC. ( I cant say my dps sucked but atleast i did this that no other dps did with Mage.....maybe arcane can)

3. Story......but meh used to some cringe. It just removed my customer loyalty.

Generaly though im getting a really good vibe and Legion has a certain freshness to it where I can understand having some growing problems (point 2)

[Pantalaimon]

blizz has aquired a fuck the fan base attitude which is evident in the unnecessary class changes and little to no comment on class feedback of which there was lots.most players didnt want these changes and alot (not all)are simply pointless and render some classes/specs useless for certain aspects of the game ie pvp/raiding,why blizz would do this is beyond me.i hear words like class fantasy and enjoyable and fun to play classes after the changes,i say thats bull,blizz is like a stubborn child who will not admit to being wrong even though most players would disagree.so were stuck with the changes and thats it,time to move on.

Actually constantly changing classes is a very intentional design move. In the minds of some designers it helps to prevent 'class burnout' by preventing the class playstyle from generally stagnating for 6+ years in a row. If you don't change the classes every so often the only thing that will change how they feel is 1-2 new abilities added every 2 years & tier bonuses. That's it. Changing class design is a way of keeping old things (classes) fresh by having players use tired abilities differently in a way that doesn't contribute to ability bloat and that isn't simply tied to a piece of gear.

OP": With that said I am not a fan of how tanks are envisioned for this expansion. I get that Blizzard doesn't want tanks to become a jack of all trades role that can almost do everything solo with enough of an ilvl, but having almost no self healing makes me feel uncomfortable with being so squishy and feels less fun to me.

[SteveRocks]

Read the threads in the PVP forum, it's explained plenty there.

In a nutshell:

We get ilvl scaling but lose ilvl boost / cap, the net effect is that the power difference from gear is about the same as it has always been, all their posturing about just 10% difference between top and bottom nonwithstanding (it was about 10% in PVP scenarios for two addons already due to the mentioned ilvl boost / cap, honor vs conquest - getting honor takes several evenings). However, unlike before, we also get power difference from different levels of artifact (easily hits 15% of power increase) and PVP talents (another 10-15% and specs are wildly uneven in that some basically require the very last talent - example: Unholy). And since we no longer have conquest, the only way to improve gear for 99% of PVPers is to raid (the remaining 1% can try getting some pieces from PVP, although even then they'd have to raid - no, 1% can not be increased, that's how PVP ratings work, when you climb up, someone is going down).

So, in MoP / WoD: the only power difference is gear, you were closing it by PVPing, even playing only for cap you were closing it completely to 0% difference between you and the absolute highest power level possible by mid-season, the second half of the season not a single player had more power than you.

But in Legion: the power difference is gear (same ~10% as before) plus artifacts plus PVP talents, in order to close the gear gap you have to raid and unless you are doing mythic and are getting lucky with +ilvl modifiers, you can not close it ever. Realistically, if you are doing normal / heroic raids, the difference between you and mythic players will be about 2-3% just from gear before we factor in the artifact. And if you don't want to raid in order to gear for PVP, god bless you, the best gear you will have is LFR, about 7% difference before the artifact (I am assuming all your PVP talents are maxed).

I know the blues are masters at making misleading statements, but in reality it gets seriously worse instead of better. Go read the PVP forums for tons of detail.

And regarding the balance... here you go:

https://clips.twitch.tv/ziqoftw/Inex...ngrayOMGScoots

I appreciate your response, but that went a bit over my head. I thought that gear in PvP becomes normalized? Like stats balance out and ilvl is somewhat negligible? It sounds like you're saying between a low-geared player and a mythic raid-geared player the highest difference will be 7%? If so that really doesn't sound too bad at all.

[Sio]

I see people who still raid casual content (read: non mythic as it won't be cross realm enabled) don't trust their raiders enough to leave the loot on need before greed and still have desires to use ML to gear their buddy, gf and cousin first.

Need before greed does not allow a raid to optimize loot drops for the betterment of the raid, nor does PL. Maybe it is better now than in Highmaul but forgive me for being doubtful. Apparently raid teams/guilds who have been doing this for ten years are all of a sudden a bunch of greedy jerks. This will likely kill my cross realm raiding team as one side wants to stay with ML, which means people have to create new toons or server transfer. Hell, even if you just recruit from your own server, you have to get people into your guild to keep ML. Saying this should only be used by Mythic raid teams is insane. It guarantees less pugs in competent raid groups at whatever difficulty level.

The only way smaller guilds survived the cratered raid scene that was WoD was by cross realm/btag friends lists. Now Blizz wants to take away a loot option that has been in the game since the beginning? All to supposedly help the pug scene? The only way you get people motivated to do PL raids is by making them the only option. And that will kill any cross realm/guild alliance teams. Blizz is telling me to go pay money for a server transfer. More money for some slacker devs.

[rda]

I appreciate your response, but that went a bit over my head. I thought that gear in PvP becomes normalized? Like stats balance out and ilvl is somewhat negligible? It sounds like you're saying between a low-geared player and a mythic raid-geared player the highest difference will be 7%? If so that really doesn't sound too bad at all.

The difference from gear was at the same level already, you can see for yourself whether it matters or not (it does).

Yes, they are normalizing gear and are scaling the ilvl difference down in Legion, like you say. But that's merely replacing one measure to bring the power difference down a bit with another - in MoP / WoD they were not normalizing gear and scaling the ilvl difference down, instead they were taking the ilvl of whoever enters the BG / arena and increasing it if it is too low or decreasing it if it is too high, bringing it into a narrow corridor. The end result was about the same 10% difference they cite for the first season of Legion.

Really, talks about percentages like 10% or 7% are another instance of misleading statements from the blues which I should have addressed right away - they are throwing in these numbers and the numbers seem small to an untrained eye, but they aren't small. A simple illustration: the difference between a guy in full honor vs a guy in full conquest is something like 9.5%. Add conquest 4p and both trinkets, and a weapon to the first guy and we are at 3-4%. The difference in the first case is insurmountable, a 1500 guy in conquest will beat a glad in honor. The difference in the second case is not insurmountable, but pretty hard, it's like the guy in conquest gets +300-400 rating.

Ultimately, the important thing is that the power difference *was* already at the level of single-digit percentages in MoP / WoD, the changes are not reducing it. In fact, they are adding more and bigger differences on top, which we didn't previously have. The power differences are becoming larger, not smaller, plus, unlike now, you can't really reduce them (I mean, if you raid mythic or are a glad, you can, but if you just want to PVP, you no longer can, you will have to live with gear that it some 5-7% worse than those of others - and just wait until they add something to artifacts that only drops in raids, if that happens, you might add another couple of percents to what you'll have to live with).

[Marrilaife]

Need before greed does not allow a raid to optimize loot drops for the betterment of the raid, nor does PL.

Nothing prevents friends to trade loot to each other after rolls are done "for the betterment of the raid" (no idea what does it even mean in casual raiding it's not like "I need to gear my dps first because I'm rushing in the world race"), unless they aren't friends and only care about themselves. You might not be able to trade every single item around with PL but with group loot you should be able to. Wanting to use ML for no other reason than "it was like that for 10 years" can't be enough reason to stop raiding together if people are friends. Unless they aren't.

And no, you weren't raiding cross realm in flex size normal / hc for 10 years. Times change. Current shape normal didn't even exist until SOO (a.k.a. flex size). Cross realm raiding is also a fairly recent implementation.

You can even decide as a team to use group loot, everyone pass and then raid leader take and redistribute items (they should be treadeable in group loot not personal).

No idea why people make it such a tragedy unless, well, you raid with untrustworthy people who /roll on everything then it's a question why is that person in your team. Again, we're talking about cross realm premade and not about pug.

[Ethas]

Artifacts, Artifact Power and having to play for weeks to just get all my spells

Thats stupid indeed.

[Raakel]

I feel I've to commit myself to a spec + artifact which takes a lot of time maxing and no one is able to tell how it will turn out. Also beeing totally at the mercy of devs once commited makes me uncomfortable. The opt out is painful and feels like wasting a lot of time and resources should you've put your money on the wrong horse. I think this design is why so many players are totally uncertain and it pushes me away from the game.

[Flurryfang]

What if you are a casual player? You dont have the time to look for a guild, spend 3 hours of raiding every day, etc. LFR has given casual players a lot, thanks to it we can see raids, bosses and a bit of lore, Is it shitty? Yeah, but for people who does not have enough time to play it is heaven.

But should these players really be given the content, which is in raiding then? Raiding is a place, where you are rewarded for playing the game on a serious lvl, with the content being part of the reward. Casual players are often the people, who don't really need the raiding lore/content, since they consume the game in a much lower pace. But it is also content, which is still free to the casual players, for a price. Before the implementation of LFR, many players "forced" themself into taking the hours to raid, and very often, they would find sudden enjoyment in it and they could then become a part of the raiding crowd. Raiding in a guild, on specific dates and on a time schedule sounds like a lot of work for most casuals, but when people force themself into these guilds and schedules just because they want to see the raiding content and see the conclusion of the lore, they often stay for something quite different: The social aspect of the raiding community.

With LFR, that carrot on stick, that often led many casual players(myself included) to raiding, is now gone. If you want to see the awesome raid bosses and the often very good scripted lore, you can just go on a train ride in LFR and see it all in a single day....... I am not saying, that LFR is what is killing some of the raiding community, but it is very clear, that it is not helping. Yes, it might be rough to say, that casual players, who don't spend enough time on the game, should be left out of the raiding content in total, but i really think that it is what is most healthy for the game overall. Raiders and the raiding community is what has made WoW famous in its early days, but nowadays, it's hard to get people into it, since there is very little reward in it other then some increased numbers.

Also, with raiding content locked off from the casual community, other communities sprouts up around them. Communities, which makes videos of raid bosses, showing the content, which they don't have time for. It might sate some people by just watching the fight/enviroment on youtube, but atleast it is helping the community in some form

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Didn't WoD do something with the set bonuses for the LFR gear that made them not that great for regular raiding?

It did. The tier in LFR was completly different and did not bring strong bonuses with them other then stats and some minor "buffs". But the gear in the dungeons was still good item lvl, which made it so, that guilds, who only killed a few bosses the first month or 2, still needed the gear from it, since the few boss kills in normal could not gear-up their playerbase.

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Didn't WoD do something with the set bonuses for the LFR gear that made them not that great for regular raiding?

It did. The tier in LFR was completly different and did not bring strong bonuses with them other then stats and some minor "buffs". But the gear in the dungeons was still good item lvl, which made it so, that guilds, who only killed a few bosses the first month or 2, still needed the gear from it, since the few boss kills in normal could not gear-up their playerbase.

[Sio]

Nothing prevents friends to trade loot to each other after rolls are done "for the betterment of the raid" (no idea what does it even mean in casual raiding it's not like "I need to gear my dps first because I'm rushing in the world race"), unless they aren't friends and only care about themselves. You might not be able to trade every single item around with PL but with group loot you should be able to. Wanting to use ML for no other reason than "it was like that for 10 years" can't be enough reason to stop raiding together if people are friends. Unless they aren't.

And no, you weren't raiding cross realm in flex size normal / hc for 10 years. Times change. Current shape normal didn't even exist until SOO (a.k.a. flex size). Cross realm raiding is also a fairly recent implementation.

You can even decide as a team to use group loot, everyone pass and then raid leader take and redistribute items (they should be treadeable in group loot not personal).

No idea why people make it such a tragedy unless, well, you raid with untrustworthy people who /roll on everything then it's a question why is that person in your team. Again, we're talking about cross realm premade and not about pug.

It is about control of loot. Personal loot makes loot distribution purely on RNG and can screw over raid balance. In some cases it will create a ton of loot drama as people whisper each other, beg, plead and attempt bribes. And yes, even "casual" raids want to control loot, especially if they have to pug a couple of people. It boggles my mind that you think a casual raid (my cross realm group rand 2-3 days a week, 6 hours total) won't care about gear, when many times in this game you have outright GEAR CHECK bosses. Group loot only works if you all know each other, no one makes mistakes and it will probably create more drama than is needed. With one master looter, it centralizes distribution and plenty of raiders/officers made sure loot followed set rules. If you think I'm going to trust a couple of friends of friends or a pug or two with group loot, you're crazier than the whiners who hate reserve loot groups and cry about "ninja looters". If the problem was so widespread, run PL raids. Why were they not that popular? Why not just add in a search function for PL raids?

Perhaps I just dislike being instantly viewed as a control freak ninja looter despite over ten years running raids where I handled loot fairly via master loot. Golden rule and all that. I often took flak from people for being fair to pugs, as in they had equal shot to gear that dropped. Why does cross realm premade (which often in WoD we would have to grab a couple from LFG on top of btag friends) have to have more restrictions than guild premade (which will be server limited)? Especially since cross realm only exists because it bolstered raiding for low pop servers or guilds who didn't have enough regular raiders. Heaven help us if Legion raids turn off people like Highmaul did.

The change will in the long run kill cross realm groups that are seriously organized (unless PL doesn't completely suck) and kill a lot of motivation for people to run alt raids with certain gear in mind, that would get people into the raid with good leadership/players teaching them the fights/carrying them. I already had little motivation in WoD to raid that way, let alone LFR. Why does Blizz put in incentives for LFR? Aka valor for compeltion of each part of LFR.

[Deleted]

You know a lot of people don't know that right? You could at least be respectful enough and hide that

seriously? if they don't want spoilers then they shouldn't read threads discussing what bothers ppl about the upcoming expansion.