Gay Syrian man beheaded and mutilated in Turkey

[Kalis]

I wouldn't classify ancient Greece as "European", it was "Mediterranean", and later European cultures incorporated a lot of it into themselves, but that does not mean ancient Greece was European itself.

Greeks invented the term European and applied it to themselves, so I think they should qualify.

[Noradin]

The Middle East is a GEOGRAPHICAL REGION, which Turkey is regarded as being located in, apparently you do not know this.

Only according to some nations, not to others. According to a German for example India and Iran would be in the ME, Syria for example in NE and Turkey in neither.
So it is an easy mistake to make to just literaly translate the from ones own language into English without noticing that the British love to define everything slightly different than peopel from the continent do. I guess they think the continent is the "Near East" thus everything beyond Central Europe gets to be named "Middle East".

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Greeks invented the term European and applied it to themselves, so I think they should qualify.

They applied it to half of their lands, they called the other half "Asia".
And their area of cultural influence really didn't end at the border between Europe and Asia. They spread all along mostly the Eastern half of Mediteranean Sea.

So yes, some of them qualified, but then some of them did not.
It is kind of like calling all English speakers "US citizens" just because some of them live in the USA totally disregarding the fact that there is also the UK.

[Kalis]

Only according to some nations, not to others. According to a German for example India and Iran would be in the ME, Syria for example in NE and Turkey in neither.
So it is an easy mistake to make to just literaly translate the from ones own language into English without noticing that the British love to define everything slightly different than peopel from the continent do. I guess they think the continent is the "Near East" thus everything beyond Central Europe gets to be named "Middle East".

Kuntantee knows how it is used, he just does not like it being applied to Turkey for political reasons.

It includes Cyprus and Israel, who would love nothing more than to be disassociated from some of the crazy nations surrounding them.

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They applied it to half of their lands, they called the other half "Asia".
And their area of cultural influence really didn't end at the border between Europe and Asia. They spread all along mostly the Eastern half of Mediteranean Sea.

So yes, some of them qualified, but then some of them did not.
It is kind of like calling all English speakers "US citizens" just because some of them live in the USA totally disregarding the fact that there is also the UK.

They regarded Greeks in Asia as being culturally European, they regarded them as distinct from the other Asians, it was one of the ways they distinguished themselves from others.

Your analogy to US and English speakers is not accurate.

[Noradin]

Kuntantee knows how it is used, he just does not like it being applied to Turkey for political reasons.

It includes Cyprus and Israel, who would love nothing more than to be disassociated from some of the crazy nations surrounding them.

Depending on the society you live in Cyprus is not counted among them, neither is Turkey.
Israel however is (since it is almost always seen to be in the exact center of that coastline).

[Kalis]

Depending on the society you live in Cyprus is not counted among them, neither is Turkey.
Israel however is (since it is almost always seen to be in the exact center of that coastline).

What "society" does not include Cyprus in the Middle East? The only person I remember saying something similar to that is Slenderman on here, who thought that Cyprus being in the EU meant it could not be located in Asia.

[Noradin]

They regarded Greeks in Asia as being culturally European, they regarded them as distinct from the other Asians, it was one of the ways they distinguished themselves from others.

Your analogy to US and English speakers is not accurate.

They regarded them as Greek and the center of their culture really wasn't in what they called Europe it was at the border between what they called Asia and Europe and everyone they had regular contact with was around the sea and to the east of them. So according to their own geographical terms they really weren't all European, just according to their cultural terms. According to our terms today they weren't strictly European either, they were Mediteranean.

[Kalis]

They regarded them as Greek and the center of their culture really wasn't in what they called Europe it was at the border between what they called Asia and Europe and everyone they had regular contact with was around the sea and to the east of them. So according to their own geographical terms they really weren't all European, just according to their cultural terms. According to our terms today they weren't strictly European either, they were Mediteranean.

The Greeks regarded their culture as European and the Asian Greeks as being Europeans in Asia.

Greeks today are regarded as Europeans, I have never heard anybody say otherwise, it would be bizarre. Mediterranean can be European, Asian or African, it is not a continental description.

[Deleted]

A culture that condones homosexuality, yet has no problem with incest.. Strange world we live in.

[Noradin]

What "society" does not include Cyprus in the Middle East? The only person I remember saying something similar to that is Slenderman on here, who thought that Cyprus being in the EU meant it could not be located in Asia.

Central European ones.
Here is an example from the German wikipedia (they made their own article everyone else mostly translated the English one and reused those pictures):

Middle East in English (for comparison):

Near East according to the German definition:

(light green regions are sometimes included when translating English sources)
Note how Cyprus is not part of it? (The region where Turkey is located is normally called "Kleinasien" ("Small Asia") since it is what the ancient Greek calle "Asia".)
Middle East according to the German definition:


The same definitions are used in Spanish for example.

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Greeks today are regarded as Europeans, I have never heard anybody say otherwise, it would be bizarre. Mediterranean can be European, Asian or African, it is not a continental description.

Greeks today aren't "The Ancient Greeks".
And a geographical description isn't limited to naming according to continents--those are problematic anyway, and especially problematic when speaking about the ancient Greek.

[Kalis]

Central European ones.

The same definitions are used in Spanish.

We are not using German or Spanish terms, we are using English terms and from those maps (especu=ially the last one) they are clearly not talking about the same thing at all when they use Middle East, so they are irrelevant.

This is an English language forum, as I pointed out to Kuntantee the only relevant definitions are those that are used in English, not ones translated from another language, or ones that Kuntantee randomly chooses to apply.

So if your argument is that Germans uses different terminology, then my response is "So fucking what? We are not speaking German".

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Greeks today aren't "The Ancient Greeks".
And a geographical description isn't limited to naming according to continents--those are problematic anyway, and especially problematic when speaking about the ancient Greek.

I have to be honest, this is beginning to sound like some Stormfront bullshit, where random European nations are declared non-European based on hair colour, or some other retarded reasoning.

Modern Greeks are Europeans, Ancient Greeks invented the term to apply to themselves and therefore are European.

[Kuntantee]

Kuntantee knows how it is used, he just does not like it being applied to Turkey for political reasons.

I don't like it because it's not a true geographical term. It's a political term, and thus vague.

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Modern Greeks are Europeans, Ancient Greeks invented the term to apply to themselves and therefore are European.

Greeks are not European in the sense that modern European identity that is constructed in mid to late Middle Ages. If you mean Greeks are "continental European", than it is a geographical term and is true. However, speaking in terms of culture, Greeks are Mediterranean aka Near Eastern. Anything about Greeks is Mediterranean, considering they've spent their entire life in the region, whether some people like it or not.

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@Noradin

You are right in two things. The ME map you posted is the actual ME. Since it's middle, there must also be a near. Indeed, Near East initially encapsulates entire Mediterranean, together with ME designating the regions your map covers. However, USA has redefined the term ME to cover entire Near East too.

Greeks are Mediterranean in every possible way. This upsets some Greeks because science and progressiveness is linked with being European. This is unfortunately nothing more than a inferiority complex. Greeks were too quick to forget that current Western and Central European civilization is invented and developed around Mediterranean (Italy and Greece) and not in deeper parts of continental Europe.

[Kalis]

Greeks are not European in the sense that modern European identity that is constructed in mid to late Middle Ages. If you mean Greeks are "continental European", than it is a geographical term and is true. However, speaking in terms of culture, Greeks are Mediterranean aka Near Eastern. Anything about Greeks is Mediterranean, considering they've spent their entire life in the region, whether some people like it or not.

You can be both Mediterranean AND European, overlapping is perfectly acceptable.

Why you persist with your utterly inane "modern European identity" nonsense that you keep spouting, as if there is some official cut off date for when people officially counted as European, is beyond me.

There is no cut off date, lots of nations have formed in Europe since the mid-to-late Middle Ages, they are still European. Turkey did not even exist prior to the 1920s, so you would have to fiddle your own arbitrary criteria just to include the nation you want to include.

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You are right in two things. The ME map you posted is the actual ME. Since it's middle, there is also a near. Indeed, Near East encapsulates entire Mediterranean. However, USA has redefined the term ME to cover entire Near East too. Also, Greeks are Mediterranean in every possible way.

This upsets some Greeks because science and progressiveness is linked with being European. This is unfortunately nothing more than a inferiority complex. However, Greeks were too quick to forget that current Western and Central European civilization is invented around Mediterranean (Italy and Greece) and not in deeper parts of continental Europe.

We are talking about English terminology, Greeks do not get a say in that.

[Lucrece]

I don't understand why, if you hated gays, you'd rape them. Not to diminish how terrible this crime is, but just seems weird.

Turkey may not have any laws or rules against homosexuality, but they're still quite a homophobic nation. Pretty disgusting stuff.

Rape is about humiliation, not mere sexual pleasure or attraction. Think about jail or what happens win warbands in Africa to prisoners of the guerrilla groups.

They do it to humiliate and degrade.

[Noradin]

We are not using German or Spanish terms, we are using English terms and from those maps (especu=ially the last one) they are clearly not talking about the same thing at all when they use Middle East, so they are irrelevant.

This is an English language forum, as I pointed out to Kuntantee the only relevant definitions are those that are used in English, not ones translated from another language, or ones that Kuntantee randomly chooses to apply.

So if your argument is that Germans uses different terminology, then my response is "So fucking what? We are not speaking German".

No, I was just pointing out that it is an easy mistake to make when translating from another language that uses seemingly similar terms with just slightly different definitions because when you look them up in a dictionary they show up as direct translations of each other.

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@Noradin

You are right in two things. The ME map you posted is the actual ME. Since it's middle, there must also be a near. Indeed, Near East initially encapsulates entire Mediterranean, together with ME designating the regions your map covers. However, USA has redefined the term ME to cover entire Near East too.

Even before that The British redefined NE to mean the European part of the Ottoman Empire and ME to mean the rest of it.
It was done because they didn't want to call regions under Islamic rule "European".

[Kuntantee]

Why you persist with your utterly inane "modern European identity" nonsense that you keep spouting, as if there is some official cut off date for when people officially counted as European, is beyond me.

There is no cut off date, lots of nations have formed in Europe since the mid-to-late Middle Ages, they are still European. Turkey did not even exist prior to the 1920s, so you would have to fiddle your own arbitrary criteria just to include the nation you want to include.

Just because it upsets you, it doesn't mean it's inane. The current European civilization, which is heavily influenced by Christianity, was started to be built after middle of Middle Ages. You may open a history book and start reading. You are confusing being from continental Europe, which is a geographical designator, with contemporary European identity which is at best 50 years old and was built upon the identity I mentioned earlier.

Turkey as a state did not exist before 1920. Turkish identity did. A state and identity are two different social phenomena.

[Noradin]

We are talking about English terminology, Greeks do not get a say in that.

So then the fact that according to you called themselves "European" is irrelevant as well? Good to know that you disagree with yourself like that.

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Modern Greeks are Europeans, Ancient Greeks invented the term to apply to themselves and therefore are European.

So the Spanish who invented the term "American" are therefore American?

[Kalis]

Just because it upsets you, it doesn't mean it's inane. The current European civilization, which is heavily influenced by Christianity, was started to be built after middle of Middle Ages. You may open a history book and start reading. You are confusing being from continental Europe, which is a geographical designator, with contemporary European identity which is at best 50 years old and was built upon the identity I mentioned earlier.

Turkey as a state did not exist before 1920. Turkish identity did. A state and identity are two different social phenomena.

Your attempts to redefine English terminology is what pisses me off, it has nothing to do with Greeks.

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So then the fact that according to you called themselves "European" is irrelevant as well? Good to know that you disagree with yourself like that.

No, because one is pointing out the origins of a term, the other is how it is used in English, they are two different arguments. Do keep up.

So the Spanish who invented the term "American" are therefore American?

They did not apply it to themselves, so no.

[Noradin]

Your attempts to redefine English terminology is what pisses me off, it has nothing to do with Greeks.

Yes, yes, the language belongs to you and nobody else is allowed to use it!
How dare people express their thoughts using slightly inaccurate translations from other languages or worse point out that such things might happen!
It is a travesty! Really!

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No, because one is pointing out the origins of a term, the other is how it is used in English, they are two different arguments. Do keep up.

You seem to be the one who cannot keep the two seperate.
And you seem to be the one who got triggered by people mentioning concepts that do not originate in England.
(How dare we mention non-English points of view? Seriously! (But if you do it, it's ok, of course!))

They did not apply it to themselves, so no.

Neither did all Ancient Greeks, only a few of them (who thought they were better than the rest).

[Kalis]

Yes, yes, the language belongs to you and nobody else is allowed to use it!
How dare people express their thoughts using slightly inaccurate translations from other languages or worse point out that such things might happen!
It is a travesty! Really!

If they are using inaccurate translations, then they are using it wrong.

And Kuntantee was not using an inaccurate translation, he just does not like the English term.

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You seem to be the one who cannot keep the two seperate.

I did not conflate the two arguments, you did that, so no.

Neither did all Ancient Greeks, only a few of them (who thought they were better than the rest).

They regarded their culture as European, regardless of where they lived, as distinct from Asiatic and Libyan cultures, so again no.

[Noradin]

They regarded their culture as European, regardless of where they lived, as distinct from Asiatic and Libyan cultures, so again no.

Why are you conflating "cultural" and "geographical"? Hypocrisy much?

And keep in mind that while they made that distinction from our point of view (which is the one we express in this forum and I explicitly said so in my post) they had much more in common with those Asiatic and Libyan cultures than with those located in what we call Europe today.

In fact, much of what later generations just called "Greek" originated in Asia an Lybia.

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If they are using inaccurate translations, then they are using it wrong.

And I was just pointing out how that might have come to pass and that there might be some merit in keeping the fact that the other definition is out there in some societies in mind.
You were the one who went all "British Thought Police" on us for mentioning non-UK approved terms. And we didn't even pretend they were the British terms, no we were very up front in stating that they were different concepts from different societies.