What the...changing talents

[MatthewOU2015]

If ain't broke, then break it!

-Blizzard 2016

[Tijuana]

The only difference is tomes are now more expensive, are player made, and are not tied in the UI so you are not asked to use one when attempting to change talents.

They obviously only did this to make inscription relevant, after scrapping major glyphs.

[bloodmoth13]

Picking talents should be as much about what you miss out on as what you gain, being able to freely change means you basically have all at the same time, only real choice is whether you want to put the extra effort in to do better, which is pretty crap gameplay to be frank, putting a cost just means you can if you insist, but its no longer mandatory.

Its for the best imo, changing talents between fights was lame

[Bepples]

You know, I could've sworn the whole reason to go to this fucking retarded talent system we currently have is so we could change on the fly, to be able to meet the demands of the fight. Now they're saying they don't want us doing that? What the fuck Blizzard?

They then raise the cost and make the items harder to get by making players create them rather than just an unlimited supply on a vendor. But we get so much fucking gold now that that price won't even matter in the coming months, so people will STILL be able to change on the fly. So they net gained NOTHING by backpedaling on their words.

You are correct. They did a complete 180.

http://www.wowhead.com/guide=5.0&tal...g-talent-trees

Read the blue posts in that. In particular (emphasis mine):

Fundamentally, taking into account what we’ve learned about talent trees over the years, we’ve come to the conclusion that the talent tree model where you pick up tiny performance increases here and there (and where there’s, mathematically, nearly always a ‘right’ answer and a ‘wrong’ answer) is not a great model. The Mists talent design is a major revamp that should fix this problem once and for all. Talents should be meaningful game-changers. At absolute worst a given talent may be the right one only situationally, and at best, players will have a lot more customization to make their play-style stand out. Furthermore, the fact that you’ll have more flexibility to change your talents should help keep gameplay fresh, even with that character that you play most often.

With the new system we give you everything you really need automatically, and talents are going to be more interesting 'style' and utility choices than a bunch of stat and damage increases. The choice comes, hopefully, from choosing talents that appeal to how you like to play or what you think would be particularly useful for a specific boss, fight, or encounter, and the ability to swap around points freely while out in the world help reinforce that.

Similar to current functionality, talents selections will be finalized by clicking "Learn" at the bottom of the talent pane; however, a big benefit of removing talent points is that it allows us to let players "re-talent" with more flexibility. Even after players have activated their talents, they won't be completely locked into their choices as they are now. If at any point a player feels that another talent may be more appropriate or fun, he or she can simply select that talent from their tree and click "Learn" again. This can be done on a talent-by-talent basis or, if the situation demands it, all talents can be changed out at once.

[Pengalor]

I know I'm probably very late to the party on this one, but I've just searched for Tome of the Clear Mind on my AH and it's 11g per tome. What the hell, Blizzard? So we now have to plan well in advance and spend a stupid amount per talent change? What's the reasoning for not allowing you to change talents easily between bosses and on trash?

You are certainly late but continue making as much noise about the change as you can, it really is an awful change and hurts the game far more than it ever helped anything.

[Locruid]

This is such a non issue.

I don't think most of the people in this thread would survive a single day in Vanilla. Know how many times I had to run to the AV vendor to get the B E S T arrows for my weapon? And they were noticeable on the damage scale. Hell logging into a Hunter in Vanilla you prolly spent an hour getting ready to play having to find the RIGHT food for your pet and getting your arrows from the AV Vendor.

Run a dungeon with one talent then run it again with other talent. Not that hard to do.

[Pengalor]

Funny how 1st time in WoW's history you can change talents and switch specs for free and people still find something to bitch about

"They did a good thing so it's 100% good, there's no possibility that further changes could improve or degrade the system!"

You really need to work on your logic.

[Nnyco]

time to teleport to order hall everytime you wanna change talents if youre too cheap for 10g~

[Pengalor]

This is such a non issue.

I don't think most of the people in this thread would survive a single day in Vanilla. Know how many times I had to run to the AV vendor to get the B E S T arrows for my weapon? And they were noticeable on the damage scale. Hell logging into a Hunter in Vanilla you prolly spent an hour getting ready to play having to find the RIGHT food for your pet and getting your arrows from the AV Vendor.

Run a dungeon with one talent then run it again with other talent. Not that hard to do.

Who gives a fuck about vanilla? Vanilla is dead, the game has moved on, and in its current state the system is broken by design.

[jamisawesome]

Just use the raid-wide consumable

[Deleted]

Changes like this one make me question who is actually on the current WoW design-team anymore. There are so many awful ideas, that seem to spring from people who never actually play the game themselves. So many decisions that are begrudgingly reverted because they turn out to be complete shit.

The point with the new tomes isn't wether switching talents is possible or not, it's that such a price was attached to it. Imagine you're finished clearing groups of trash and now you're in front of a boss with no adds. Since you're in mythic+ and every bit of damage matters, you swap out 1-2 talents towards pure single damage. This will not cost you 10-15 gold every single time (depending on market prices).

I guess I should be glad that, as a Blood DK, this won't affect me much since we have exactly one usable talent setup and everything else is complete garbage.

[Taeldorian]

Because the entire stated purpose of the 5.0 talent system was exactly that: switching talents easily. This is to add flexibility and depth to the talent system: you have to know the spells well and know which ones to have for each fight, and each role in those fights (e.g. priority add burst v.s. sustained AoE).

We even dropped talent trees for this. Talent trees had the benefit of giving you a small bonus every level, so it felt like you were gaining something. The downside was that you picked a cookie cutter build and NEVER changed it. Whereas the MoP system sacrificed the former so that it WAS flexible.

Now, we have the MoP talent system with the freedom removed. It's literally the worst of both systems. This was ONLY done to a) get back at players for complaining about the respect cost (ok, I admit, this is speculation and is probably wrong, but it is suspicious that they announced this change in literally the same post where they said they were removing the absurd gold cost on respeccing they were originally going to have), and b) to provide Inscription with a reason for existing. And that second point, while being a valid reason, is also just patching up another bad design decision (the removal of glyphs), so that is hardly a good excuse.

You only agree with Blizzard on this because you are gullible.

So, because I disagree with having talents being available basically all the time while still being called talents means im gullible? Thats interesting, but wrong. Only for a reason or two, though.

I agree with Blizzard that talents should not always be available to you, because if it gets to that point which it almost was, they should just be in your spellbook and be called basic abilities rather than talents. I never said I agree with them switching the talent trees from the pre cata style to the mop style we have now in order to achieve that flexibility though.

Keep in mind, whether they made the mop talent trees to be more flexible, that was never achieved. There was always a cookie cutter build for both aoe and ST and there always will be unless they somehow achieve that goal of flexibility, but they havent yet, which is why I agree with the way they are currently going.

The main difference is that they realized the flexibility they were going for with this talent system is hardly achievable without perfect balance of each individual talent, and since thats obviously not how things are, I agree with their current method. You cant switch between adds and bosses now without a scribe in the raid or a tome of your own. Thats fine with me, the flexibility if you can even call it that wasnt working. It made a cookie cutter build for both AoE and ST, and people were able to change between each whenever they please, which was ridiculous and isnt really what Id call flexibility, its way to far ahead of it.

My point is, we have the same cookie cutter shit between AoE and ST builds we have always had, except now you arent able to switch as freely as before. I agree with this because the flexibility of the mop talents and WoD talents was getting way out of hand and people were even switching talents between add packs (3-4 adds or 6-7 adds, etc} and bosses. At that point, everything should just be a basic ability rather than a talent, but that would be stupid. Now people cant do that, or not nearly as much at least, which is why I agree with the current system.

I wouldnt mind having more flexibility as long as talents are balanced and can be matched evenly with each other, but that hasnt been achieved yet. Im also really glad that we can choose to be any spec any time, never liked being restricted by Duel spec.


p.s- My entire argument along with yours falls apart if people just buy tomes though. Then it stays the exact same as mop/wod, people can switch any time they want for 1 minute with any talent tree they please. For raids, its obvious that any semi progression guild will have a designated scribe to provide raid wide tomes. So, its not like arguing here means anything when its basically staying the same.

[Tijuana]

So, because I disagree with having talents being available basically all the time while still being called talents means im gullible? Thats interesting, but wrong. Only for a reason or two, though.

I agree with Blizzard that talents should not always be available to you, because if it gets to that point which it almost was, they should just be in your spellbook and be called basic abilities rather than talents. I never said I agree with them switching the talent trees from the pre cata style to the mop style we have now in order to achieve that flexibility though.

Keep in mind, whether they made the mop talent trees to be more flexible, that was never achieved. There was always a cookie cutter build for both aoe and ST and there always will be unless they somehow achieve that goal of flexibility, but they havent yet, which is why I agree with the way they are currently going.

Nothing really changed, I mean its still the same as it was in Mop and WoD, you just have to buy tomes from scribes now rather than from your mammoth or whatever you use. That, or someone in your raid will be the designated scribe responsible for making the raidwide tome thingy, and people can just change there talents before bosses using that.

The main difference is that they realized the flexibility they were going for with this talent system is hardly achievable without perfect balance of each individual talent, and since thats obviously not how things are, I agree with their current method. You cant switch between adds and bosses now without a scribe in the raid or a tome of your own. Thats fine with me, the flexibility if you can even call it that wasnt working. It made a cookie cutter build for both AoE and ST, and people were able to change between each whenever they please, which was ridiculous and isnt really what Id call flexibility, its way to far ahead of it.

You seem to be missing the point in talents in that you can only choose one on the row. So, putting them all in the spell book is not in any way similar.

I think a lot of players find changing talents for every boss to be fun. Those who don't find it fun are welcome to not ever change them. The current way accommodates both play styles, the old way accommodates one play style.

[Taeldorian]

You seem to be missing the point in talents in that you can only choose one on the row. So, putting them all in the spell book is not in any way similar.

I think a lot of players find changing talents for every boss to be fun. Those who don't find it fun are welcome to not ever change them. The current way accommodates both play styles, the old way accommodates one play style.

Okay, and that hasnt changed. You can buy tomes for a dirt cheap cost of 11g at the moment, and in Legion that will be way less when guilds return to raiding. Also, many guilds will have a scribe that just provides raidwide tomes.

Im definitely okay with the current way, thats exactly what I was arguing in my post..that the current way on live/in Legion is better.

[Pengalor]

You seem to be missing the point in talents in that you can only choose one on the row. So, putting them all in the spell book is not in any way similar.

I think a lot of players find changing talents for every boss to be fun. Those who don't find it fun are welcome to not ever change them. The current way accommodates both play styles, the old way accommodates one play style.

Yup, and that's exactly the issue with so many of Blizzard's choices lately, they restrict freedom of gameplay for a tiny minority of people who don't enjoy it (and who have the freedom not to use it in such a way). The big problem with this change for me is it makes soloing old raids an absolute pain. You either have to waste tons of gold pushing harder content or you have to leave and find an inn somewhere every time you want to change your tactics, it's ridiculous. Not to mention the talent system and raid bosses are still being built around some fights being ST, some cleave, some AOE but now they want to restrict you switching, it doesn't make sense. This change completely clashes with the design of the talent system and their methodology for designing raids and bosses.

[Tijuana]

Okay, and that hasnt changed. You can buy tomes for a dirt cheap cost of 11g at the moment, and in Legion that will be way less when guilds return to raiding. Also, many guilds will have a scribe that just provides raidwide tomes.

Im definitely okay with the current way, thats exactly what I was arguing in my post..that the current way on live/in Legion is better.

I was responding to what is in bold. /shrug

[hulkgor]

11g a pop is extremely cheap (even cheaper to craft as a scribe - it costs 8 pigments=4inks to craft... be serious, that's like silver pieces for each), and you can swap every talent during that 1 minute, so it's a lot more effective\fast than the previous tomes at 1 per talent.

Profession craftable items are integral to a decent mmo experience, if buying a couple dozens of these every month bothers you... that's just ridiculous.

[Tijuana]

Yup, and that's exactly the issue with so many of Blizzard's choices lately, they restrict freedom of gameplay for a tiny minority of people who don't enjoy it (and who have the freedom not to use it in such a way). The big problem with this change for me is it makes soloing old raids an absolute pain. You either have to waste tons of gold pushing harder content or you have to leave and find an inn somewhere every time you want to change your tactics, it's ridiculous. Not to mention the talent system and raid bosses are still being built around some fights being ST, some cleave, some AOE but now they want to restrict you switching, it doesn't make sense. This change completely clashes with the design of the talent system and their methodology for designing raids and bosses.

There is zero chance I will ever leave an area or find an inn instead of using a tome. /shrug

The whole reason for this is to make inscription have a reason to exist after major glyphs were removed.

[Taeldorian]

I was responding to what is in bold. /shrug

Oh, my bad.

[Deleted]

How is punishing people for min-maxing a solution? The current system is exactly the same as before, only with an added gold-cost slapped on top of it. If they didn't want people to constantly change between ST, Cleave and AoE setups, then don't make it so that one talent is always going to be better at that part than another in that row.
Until then punishing people for adapting their setup to the fight is just absurd, a way of saying "We screwed up, but we can't just go back to the previous system, since that would mean losing face, so let's slap some arbitrary bullshit on it and come up with a shitty justification."

It's the same as with the camera distance. Make a stupid change, realize how badly you fucked up, then pedal half-way back with a flimsy excuse.