After watching the cinematics...

[Halicia]

I love how Blizzard made these cinematics and that some Alliance only players are actually pissed at the Horde for this. Means the cinematic is super effective. We need to work together, but by using this camera angle difference of the same situation they still manage to create a divide between the Horde and Alliance. I loved all cinematics and I cant fucking wait to see what else is in store for us in the Broken Isles!

Fortunately this is one of the rare times I experienced the Horde side at all, having done the scenario on my recently boosted Horder Hunter shortly before doing the Alliance side.

Its kinda sad though, that you really need to watch both of them to appreciate the circumstances... and Horde ended up with the better cinematic, imo. The Horde heroes barely made a showing in the Alliance cinematic, but the Alliance were all over the Horde cinematic.

[Lotus Victoria]

The horde will feast on thy blood, friend! Come and have the same destiny as your king, who died for nothing!

[GrumpyJester]

"LOK'TAR OKAGH! Victory or flight!"

- Horde 2016

[Deleted]

Wonderful, the Horde switched it's Warchief -again- (I think everyone saw this coming) and now the pro-alliance people are raging while the friggin evidence of the Horde being overrun is available for everyone.

In the same way I can blame Jaina and her Alliance soldiers who retreated in Mt. Hyjal

I don't want to -ever- hear something about Horde Bias, Every expansion a new warchief, a worse garrison in WoD, Varian has an epic death while that Troll dude get's stabbed like a little bitch.

When I was watching the Horde cinematic, I wanted to see more of the Horde, what do I get? seconds of the Horde before it's all Alliance.

[DesMephisto]

Do it. That way you can about being camped and throw a fit because you rolled on a pvp server.

[Deleted]

You don't get rekt in 15s, or there's something wrong with your leadership.

Actually, the Horde was rekted in 15s, because the Legion opened new portals and ordered the Fel Carriers to bomb the crap out of the Horde position.

[Tisane]

That comment made my night. Thanks OP

[Derah]

Excellent post and I agree with everything that was said, except the part about Jaina being a hypocrite. While you are correct that she did the same thing, she also didn't know that the Horde were being overrun, and the Alliance cinematic sets it up this way. In her mind, she just thinks the Horde betrayed them and left, so she's not really a hypocrite.

It will be interesting to find out if Slyvanas eventually explains herself to the Alliance, and where they two factions go from there. Maybe she won't be able to...

She may not have known that the horde were being overrun, but that's just common sense. The horde gains NOTHING by maliciously withdrawing from the fray. Without the aid of the alliance, the horde can't beat the legion, and the exact same thing is true for the alliance. They need each other, and both sides know it.

The rest of the alliance understands this, which is why none of the other alliance leaders display the same belligerence towards the horde, not anduin, not velen, not tyrande, not the council of six.

Just Jaina, Greymane, and Rodgers. Who are respectively: A psychotic bitch who is suffering from one HELL of a nasty PTSD episode, a warmongering asshole who is, as his own daughter describes him, "Obsessed with revenge. Consumed by it", and a racist bigot who believes genocide is the solution to everything.

The rest of the alliance doesn't see what the horde did as a betrayal, they understand that if the horde retreated, it was because they were overrun. They may not know that the horde was facing superior numbers and enemies on that cliff (alliance was facing only ground troops. Horde was facing ground troops, aerial troops, and legion spaceships bombing the shit out of them) nor do they know that the horde only retreated when 3 out of 4 of their leaders were already down, and most of their army was dead (Which is why a meager number of valkyrs were able to carry the few that survived to safety) but they at least have enough common sense to know that nobody would be that fucking stupid as to maliciously abandon their allies in the middle of a battle for no fucking reason.

Jaina, Greymane, and Rodgers are just looking for an excuse to fight. Plain and simple.

And Jaina IS a hypocrite, because of what I described. She was in the same situation the last time the legion invaded and it was HER turn to buy time for someone else by holding off the enemy for as long as she could. Which she did, but then she retreated when her forces got overwhelmed, so she, more than anyone, should know that if the horde was buying time for the alliance on that cliff, and they retreated, it was because they were overrun, not because they were "serving them up to the legion".

[False]

This is what it should've happened:

Sylvanas: *Yells* "Ok Varian, we are leaving and I am going to blow the horn"
Varian: "Alright, I got this Sylvanas. Watch your back!"
Vol'jin: "I m stabbed mon. Abut to die"

*Sylvanas summons a level 20 undead mount"

Sylvanas: " I got you...troll".
Vol'jin: "thanks mon. I make you the new Warchief"

Varian: "......."
Gul'dan: " I am going to watch the Alliance Tears on the forums after I kill you."

*Varian dead*

Forum Posters: "I hate horde"


The End!

[clevin]

The problem with all the "but she blew the horn!" commentary is that all it says is "she gave the signal to retreat". No shit. But watch the Alliance cinematic again and as you look up at the archers, 1) they aren't under attack. We see none of them being attacked or killed at all and 2) they turn slowly and walk away. You don't do that if you're under attack and fighting for your lives so *from the Alliance POV* here's what happens:

Varian and Genn turn around to somehow communicate with Sylvanas.

The horn sounds to signal a Horde retreat

Genn and Varian look up and see some archers quite deliberately and casually turn and walk away.


What would YOU think as the Alliance?

- - - Updated - - -

She may not have known that the horde were being overrun, but that's just common sense. The horde gains NOTHING by maliciously withdrawing from the fray. Without the aid of the alliance, the horde can't beat the legion, and the exact same thing is true for the alliance. They need each other, and both sides know it.

except the Horde has betrayed us before and we just had to depose a crazy, warmongering Orc not long ago. You're not the most trustworthy 'ally'. As for trusting the Forsaken.... do you remember the Wrathgate?

[Jotaux]

except the Horde has betrayed us before and we just had to depose a crazy, warmongering Orc not long ago. You're not the most trustworthy 'ally'.

Which is why you shouldn't judge half the world based on a handful of people.

[Derah]

The problem with all the "but she blew the horn!" commentary is that all it says is "she gave the signal to retreat". No shit. But watch the Alliance cinematic again and as you look up at the archers, 1) they aren't under attack. We see none of them being attacked or killed at all and 2) they turn slowly and walk away. You don't do that if you're under attack and fighting for your lives so *from the Alliance POV* here's what happens:

Varian and Genn turn around to somehow communicate with Sylvanas.

The horn sounds to signal a Horde retreat

Genn and Varian look up and see some archers quite deliberately and casually turn and walk away.

Lets review the plan again shall we?

The alliance would charge the front, the horde would cover their flank. It was thanks to the horde that the alliance DOESN'T have to deal with aerial troops, as the forsaken archers were dispatching them as they came from the tomb. For most of the battle, the skies above the alliance were clear. Then near the end, they're under attack from the air, and they hear a horn sounding the retreat.

If the aerial demons are attacking the alliance, it means the horde is no longer capable of holding them back and is retreating. This doesn't implies malice or ill intent. All it means is that they went to that ridge, and bought time for the alliance, which they did, but then they had to fall back. If anything, the alliance should have been quicker mopping up stuff down there. Sylvanas even yells to Varian "Enough chatting wrynn, kill him already!"

except the Horde has betrayed us before

Ohh this should be good. Pray tell, when has the horde "betrayed" you in the past? I'm eager to know.

and we just had to depose a crazy, warmongering Orc not long ago.

A crazy warmongering orc that DID NOT represent horde ideals, and in fact you were aided by the horde rebels in deposing him. So no, he and his actions don't provide a solid argument for why would the horde be untrustworthy. You yourself have had crazy warmongering traitorous leaders. Staghelm, Benedictus, etc.

You're not the most trustworthy 'ally'.

And why is that? The horde has a long history of lying? of covering up assassination attempts? of breaking treaties over and over? Because we don't. YOU do. (Alliance sent black ops assassin squad to kill thrall in cataclysm. Wiped out any witnesses that stumbled upon their little wet work. Alliance and Horde signed a peace treaty at the end of Wrath, which the alliance broke first when they attacked the horde BEFORE the shattering took place, in the crossroads and Honor Stand, as well as sending theramoore troops into the valley of trials, while the treating orgrimmar had with Jaina was still intact)

So who's the untrustworthy here?

As for trusting the Forsaken.... do you remember the Wrathgate?

Yeah, I do. I remember that just as many forsaken troops and horde troops died there as the alliance did. The actions of putress were not endorsed by the horde, he was acting alone, leading a coup against the undercity, and his actions claimed plenty of lives on our side, so its not even like the horde benefited at all from his betrayal. If anything, the forsaken lost MORE than the alliance in the wrathgate. Because they lost troops that died when they were plaguebombed, and they lost plenty of more troops to the traitors that joined putress in his little coup.

Would you like it if the horde started to blame the alliance for the actions of the Scarlet Crusade, and the Defias? No? Of course not. Those guys are not affiliated with the alliance, nor endorsed officially or unofficially. They are splinter troops that seceded from teh alliance, and all the shit they do has nothing to do with your government. So don't pretend for a moment that the actions of putress are somehow evidence that the horde is untrustworthy.

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"LOK'TAR OKAGH! Victory or flight!"

- Horde 2016

When the horde says "Victory or Death" it means that they'd sooner die than surrender. Its applied to WAR, not BATTLES. Despite what you may think, it is possible to win wars despite losing battles. It doesn't mean they'll charge suicidally to their deaths like idiots. Ever heard the phrase "Lose the battle, win the war"?

At the very least, the horde waited until 3 out of 4 of our leaders were down, and most of our army wiped out by fel legion spaceship bombings before they sounded the retreat.

The alliance still had all four of their leaders perfectly okay and capable of keeping the fight, and their army mostly intact, but the minute, THE SECOND they saw things turn sour, they sounded the retreat.

So who's the biggest chicken-shit here?

[Ins0mnia]

Alliance are tards once again \o/

Bolvar was a much better leader then varian. Glad he's dead.

[ItachiZaku]

Ohh this should be good. Pray tell, when has the horde "betrayed" you in the past? I'm eager to know.

Well, to be fair with this one, we are at war with those Alliance cunts... on many fronts. The Seige of Orgrimmar did not stop the decades old war.

- - - Updated - - -

You keep using that word "fuck", I do not think it means what you think it means.

[A dot Ham]

Touche mon ami!

[Xisa]

Not really. The horde only sounded the retreat when they were inches away from death and only Sylvanas was left standing out of all 4 leaders. Nearly all of the horde army was battered by the aerial bombardment by the legion spaceships, which the alliance didn't have to deal with, nor the aerial troops, which the alliance also didn't have to deal with. Alliance was facing nothing but ground troops. Horde was facing ground troops, aerial troops, and fucking spaceships with laser cannons. And even then, they still held on until all but one of the leaders was down.

Meanwhile the alliance had not one, not two, not three, but FOUR of their faction leaders perfectly okay and capable of standing, and the second they saw that the situation turned for the worse, they ran like chicken-shits, while doubling in hypocrisy over the whole deal.

Do you forget that Jaina, the very same person giving the horde so much shit for sounding the retreat, did the exact same thing the last time the legion invaded? She held archimonde on mount hyjal for as long as her forces could, but when she was overwhelmed, she chose not to die pointlessly, and sounded the retreat. And now she's calling the horde dishonorable cowards, for doing the exact same thing she did the last time the legion came a'knocking.

The alliance are not only pussies, their hypocritical pussies.

Yes, hypocrites that stood their ground while everyone else fled.

[Derah]

Yes, hypocrites that stood their ground while everyone else fled.

Nope, Hypocrites that fled the second they saw the tides turn against them. Their leaders were still fine, their army was still fine.

At least the horde waited until 3 out of 4 leaders were down (one of them fatally wounded) and most of the army wiped out before we sounded the retreat.

Your side was perfectly fine, and just ran like pussies the moment they saw the deck stacked against them.

[Aydinx2]

3: Jaina is a fucking hypocrite for blaming the horde for what happened. She herself did the EXACT same thing that the horde did on the broken shore, the last time the legion invaded. She and her forces held archimonde on hyjal for as long as they could, but when they were overwhelmed, they sounded the retreat, and fled, rather than die pointlessly. Now she's giving shit to the horde, calling them dishonorable cowards, for doing what she herself did the last time the legion came a'knocking.

Have a good day.

This point is entirely wrong.
She's not saying they're cowards for retreating. She thinks the Horde purposely left to let the Alliance die to the Legion. Jaina doesn't know that the Horde had to retreat because they were being overwhelmed.

If you did the Alliance side of the quests you'd know this.

[WintersLegion]

could we stop with this bullshit?
the horde did NOT betray the alliance, they got overrun and retreated, the cinematics scream it literally in your face!

I don't like how the Cinematics were done. As Alliance you only see the Alliances part not what happened to Horde. But as Horde even though you've already retreated you still see what happens to Varian and such.

[DeltrusDisc]

I went completely white with Varians death, I've known for months it was coming but it felt quite overkill but still it was effective showing just how bad Gul'dan/The Legion is.

Yeah. It was painful to watch, no doubt about that. Some of the darkest stuff I've seen from Blizzard, when you really consider essentially what Gul'dan is doing to him... after he gets stabbed by TWO demons...