What's up with Jainas attitude towards the horde all of the sudden?(Invasion Spoiler)

[Zulkhan]

Jaina should have thought twice about helping the Alliance.

To be fair, denying any degree of help would have been the same as betrayal. Regardless of her poor and delusional moves to achieve "world peace", she remained an Alliance member.

As I said in some other related thread, the big problem of Jaina is that she seemed weirdely obsessed with the idea of peace between Horde and Alliance, even more than Thrall himself was. Which makes it seem like it was more or at least partially tied to her personal issues (validating the willing sacrifice of her father and dispel the shadow of guilt) and then to an actual desire of finding a more reasonable way to deal with the Horde. As a result, Jaina's desperation and consequent frustration seemed to have caged her in some bubble preventing her to fully acknowledge the reality of the world around her.

[Tripzzz]

Good story, just one little error.
According to ingame sources and books the Alliance (and Jaina) attacked Southern Barrens before the Cataclysm, thus before Garrosh' intrusion into Ashenvale.


If Jaina didn't notice that her army walked out of Theramore to attack the Horde than she would be the worst leader in history.
That is not comparable to a leader not knowing what every single person is doing.
It would be a good comparison if her entire army just walked out of the Undercity to attack the Argent Dawn.

Sylvanas didn't have to know what everyone is doing. As the leader of the Forsaken, she should have known what her high ranking forsaken in positions of power(Putress and Stillwater) were doing. You can throw Koltira and Varimathras in there aswell. The fact that she didn't know and couldn't control what people in high positions of authority in the Forsaken were doing shows that she ain't the amazing leader all the fanboys make her out to be.

[FertsBlert]

Sylvanas didn't have to know what everyone is doing. As the leader of the Forsaken, she should have known what her high ranking forsaken in positions of power(Putress and Stillwater) were doing. You can throw Koltira and Varimathras in there aswell. The fact that she didn't know and couldn't control what people in high positions of authority in the Forsaken were doing shows that she ain't the amazing leader all the fanboys make her out to be.

Or just maybe those experiences have lead to her doing a bit of learning about how to lead and pay attention to what your subordinates are doing when you're a political leader rather than a military one. You know character growth n' shit it's like characters can actually be shown to learn.

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas didn't have to know what everyone is doing. As the leader of the Forsaken, she should have known what her high ranking forsaken in positions of power(Putress and Stillwater) were doing. You can throw Koltira and Varimathras in there aswell. The fact that she didn't know and couldn't control what people in high positions of authority in the Forsaken were doing shows that she ain't the amazing leader all the fanboys make her out to be.

She knew something was wrong with Stillwater, that's why she sent people with authority to punish Forsaken with true death to check the situation. Putress wasn't in a position of power. He was a Grand Apothecary, not Master Apothecary. The other Grand Apothecary isn't really that important in the quests. And she knew about Koltira's truce with Thassarian. Your comparison is still full of holes.

[xChurch]

Cool, and the Varian was a crappy leader for not knowing two of his Bishops were Twilight followers.

So can we now get back to Jaina sending her troops attacking the Horde and thus breaking a truce, which in turn justifies any response the Horde gives her.

The problem is the Horde's response was not to capture Theramore, but to completely obliterate it, wipe it off the map in an instant. Nothing justifies that, it's practically the WoW equivalent of a nuke.

[Tripzzz]

She knew something was wrong with Stillwater, that's why she sent people with authority to punish Forsaken with true death to check the situation. Putress wasn't in a position of power. He was a Grand Apothecary, not Master Apothecary. The other Grand Apothecary isn't really that important in the quests. And she knew about Koltira's truce with Thassarian. Your comparison is still full of holes.

If Putress wasn't in a position of power how the fuck did Wrathgate occur? Grand apothecary are pretty important in the Forsaken, they are tasked with handling the plauge/blight. You know, the forsakens iconic weapon. If that isn't important I don't know what the fuck is? Maybe feeding the undead horses?

If Slyvanas knew about Koltira's truce why the fuck did she appoint him to lead her army into battle against the man he made the truce with?

[Daexulin]

I actually have. And it was still a cowardice retreat. You don't leave your allies to save your own ass. That's the very definition of being a coward.

this gets me every time I come across it.

The Horde and Alliance weren't there fighting as allies, they were just there at the same time. Varian and Sylvannas formed an uneasy truce on their gunships because they knew the demonic threat was more important. It was not the duty of the horde to cover the retreat of the alliance especially since the alliance, at the time, had the easier retreat. Gul'dan had to summon an colossal infernal to stop the Alliance gun ship. The Alliance would have done the same exact thing to the Horde if the roles were switched.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is the Horde's response was not to capture Theramore, but to completely obliterate it, wipe it off the map in an instant. Nothing justifies that, it's practically the WoW equivalent of a nuke.

This wasn't the Horde's response, it was Garrosh's. He performed the nuke attack without the knowledge of the other leaders and sacrificed tons of the Horde in doing so. The rest of the Horde were fighting under the instruction to occupy Theramore, Garrosh flat out lied to his army. Garrosh bombing Thereamore was a detestable act but so was the entirety of his rule.

[Deleted]

All those whining about "Garrosh is not the Horde" he was the leader at that time. He represented the Horde. Nobody objected so it was the Horde. It doesn't matter if, from an internal perspective, it was different. The question is what the external representation was. Did he have the title of Warchief? Yes, he did. Does that make him the most influential, most representative figure of the Horde from an external point of view? Yes. So whatever he did was in the name of the Horde at that point.

But if you want to spin it like that ... well the Northwatch troops were probably following Daelin Proudmoores orders/wishes/spirit and weren't really part of the alliance so of course Theramore was still neutral. After all there is also a whole quest line on the alliance side to expose deserters.

Cool, and the Varian was a crappy leader for not knowing two of his Bishops were Twilight followers.

So can we now get back to Jaina sending her troops attacking the Horde and thus breaking a truce, which in turn justifies any response the Horde gives her.

You mean the stuff that never was played out in game because it was cut in favor of Horde content? Would you care to point me into the direction of the book that has anything in it about it? I'd really be interested to actually know what happened except for "lol we need a boss for dungeon, any ideas?"?

[Mehrunes]

You mean the stuff that never was played out in game because it was cut in favor of Horde content? Would you care to point me into the direction of the book that has anything in it about it? I'd really be interested to actually know what happened except for "lol we need a boss for dungeon, any ideas?"?

Everything Kangodo mentioned was played in the game. I mean, you even acknowledged one of these events being in the game. But even if it was cut, trying to explain the cut as HORDE BIAS is unsubstantiated whining. And if your problem is things being not played in the game, why are you asking for books?

[McFrotton]

I'm sorry, could you remind me again why in the fuck Sylvanas has to do anything more than sound that horn for Varian to know what's going on?

This pretty much, the fucking horde horn sound and seeing them going was meaning GET THE FUCK OUT DAMN IT!

[Deleted]

This wasn't the Horde's response, it was Garrosh's. He performed the nuke attack without the knowledge of the other leaders and sacrificed tons of the Horde in doing so. The rest of the Horde were fighting under the instruction to occupy Theramore, Garrosh flat out lied to his army. Garrosh bombing Thereamore was a detestable act but so was the entirety of his rule.

They knew about an attack, but not about the manabomb. Baine sent word to Jaina to warn her about it.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Afaik they knew. At least Baine did. And he sent word to Jaina to warn her about it.

He didn't know it was a mana bomb. But he knew the Horde would attack Theramore.

[Deleted]

Could we all agree that every faction has their reasons with the exception of the Orcs who are just a bunch of bloodthirsty animals who want to kill, rape and conquer because they think thats honorable?

[Deleted]

He didn't know it was a mana bomb. But he knew the Horde would attack Theramore.

Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I edited the post to avoid spreading misinformation on my part.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Could we all agree that every faction has their reasons with the exception of the Orcs who are just a bunch of bloodthirsty animals who want to kill, rape and conquer because they think thats honorable?

except for the part where the majority of the orcs rebelled against Garrosh ......

[Deleted]

except for the part where the majority of the orcs rebelled against Garrosh ......

Don't saw a single Orc rebelling against Garrosh when he attacked Ashenvale or after he annihilated Theramore. I remember that the Horde celebrated the massive Destruction of Life caused by the Mana Bomb, probably like the Waffen-SS celebrated mass shootings.

[Mehrunes]

Don't saw a single Orc rebelling against Garrosh when he attacked Ashenvale or after he annihilated Theramore. I remember that the Horde celebrated the massive Destruction of Life caused by the Mana Bomb, probably like the Waffen-SS celebrated mass shootings.

Yes, let's compare mass shootings to destroying a strictly military target. That's totally not dishonest as fuck.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Don't saw a single Orc rebelling against Garrosh when he attacked Ashenvale or after he annihilated Theramore. I remember that the Horde celebrated the massive Destruction of Life caused by the Mana Bomb, probably like the Waffen-SS celebrated mass shootings.

Not every Horde member celebrated it. Also lol, rebellig at Garrosh would have ended in nothing but death at that point. Garrosh used the mana bomb, on the Alliance who they were in an active war with at the time. Are all humans evil because Rogers ordered some swimming orcs to be killed? The elf with her didn't rebel. Does that mean he was fine with the murders ? No. Things don't exist in black and white.

[Raetary]

oh great.... m-ra is back....

[Zulkhan]

Don't saw a single Orc rebelling against Garrosh when he attacked Ashenvale

I didn't see a single Human rebelling against the Alliance when they attacked the Crossroads or Taurajo. If anything, the improvised troops picked from their very Stockades "rebelled" only to turn into filthy looters.

I remember that the Horde celebrated the massive Destruction of Life caused by the Mana Bomb, probably like the Waffen-SS celebrated mass shootings.

No one celebrated the "massive destruction of life". People were generally split between those who celebrated the victory over Theramore regardless of how it came (aka, those who joined the celebrations in Orgrimmar) and those who simply disliked or outright hated the method used to achieve said victory (aka, the people who went to Razor Hill). Generally speaking, no one had any love to spare for Theramore, which is hard to blame considering the attitude many of its troops maintained through the years (culminated with the full-spread military effort occured in Cataclysm).