What's up with Jainas attitude towards the horde all of the sudden?(Invasion Spoiler)

[Aucald]

Don't saw a single Orc rebelling against Garrosh when he attacked Ashenvale or after he annihilated Theramore. I remember that the Horde celebrated the massive Destruction of Life caused by the Mana Bomb, probably like the Waffen-SS celebrated mass shootings.

The Battle of Theramore, and specifically the use of the Mana Bomb, was actually a catalyzing event that led straight to Vol'jin's insurrection against Garrosh and his True Horde forces. So yes, many Orcs - an overwhelming majority of the Horde in fact, did indeed rebel in the wake of the Battle of Theramore. It seems like you're trying to revise history on a pretty extreme level.

[Deleted]

Sh-t.. I love Jaina and I really hope they stop writing her story so poorly. :(

[Zulkhan]

The Battle of Theramore, and specifically the use of the Mana Bomb, was actually a catalyzing event that led straight to Vol'jin's insurrection against Garrosh and his True Horde forces. So yes, many Orcs - an overwhelming majority of the Horde in fact, did indeed rebel in the wake of the Battle of Theramore. It seems like you're trying to revise history on a pretty extreme level.

In fact, Varian himself talked about the info gathered by his spies in Orgrimmar and realized, to his surprise, that there were Horde members shocked as much as the Alliance ones about what occurred at Theramore and because of this knowledge he trusted that an uprising could have been triggered if the Alliance invaded Orgrimmar with the shown intention to dethrone Garrosh specifically, considered how, Theramore aside, a lot of people harbored a growing dissatisfaction in regards of Garrosh's reign, both pursuing unneeded wars and silencing the slightest form of discontent with violence.

In other words, the events of the 5.3/5.4 could have occurred back then already but didn't happen because a proper catalyst lacked (since Varian's fleet ultimately failed to invade Durotar).

[Deleted]

Everything Kangodo mentioned was played in the game. I mean, you even acknowledged one of these events being in the game. But even if it was cut, trying to explain the cut as HORDE BIAS is unsubstantiated whining. And if your problem is things being not played in the game, why are you asking for books?

I'm referring to the thing about the bishops and from what I can remember it wasn't played out. At best there were some really, really small pieces here and there to hint at him having turned while he actually was really important character for the Twilight Cultists which were a major player in Cata. I might be remembering it wrong though, after all it's been ages since Cata. Would you happen to have any quest numbers or similar so I'd be able to check it out?

Oh and I didn't say anything about horde bias this time. This was/is about my memories of there not being any real story about how those bishops went evil so we don't know whenever Varian knew about it or not. In addition this might just be because horde story was done first for Cata. From what I remember that was an actual statement at some point to e.g. explain the very different experience for the respective intros to the Twilight Highlands.

[Magnagarde]

The Battle of Theramore, and specifically the use of the Mana Bomb, was actually a catalyzing event that led straight to Vol'jin's insurrection against Garrosh and his True Horde forces. So yes, many Orcs - an overwhelming majority of the Horde in fact, did indeed rebel in the wake of the Battle of Theramore. It seems like you're trying to revise history on a pretty extreme level.

No. The majority of the trolls and prominent tauren spearheaded the rebellion, followed by only a handful of orcs(ie Eithrigg and Saurfang, though more verbally than through their actions).

The majority of the orcs did what they are best at; fight for a wrong cause, drop the cause and banner of the wrong cause once defeated and put on a new shirt. They then continue saying they didn't do it, blaming the previous group they are no longer part of and wait for another wrong cause to fight for.

[theun]

What's up with Jainas attitude towards the horde all of the sudden?

Terrible writng

[Aucald]

No. The majority of the trolls and prominent tauren spearheaded the rebellion, followed by only a handful of orcs(ie Eithrigg and Saurfang, though more verbally than through their actions).

The majority of the orcs did what they are best at; fight for a wrong cause, drop the cause and banner of the wrong cause once defeated and put on a new shirt. They then continue saying they didn't do it, blaming the previous group they are no longer part of and wait for another wrong cause to fight for.

The word from Blizzard was that the majority of the Horde itself sided with Vol'jin's rebellion, which I would take to mean the majority of all its constituent races. While Garrosh's True Horde forces was composed mostly of Orcs and Goblins (and notably some Mantid), these were mostly composed of his elite Kor'kron and other special picks - the Orc players would seem to represent the rank and file of Orcs, as well as the entire corps of peons, who did not join the True Horde and were not on Garrosh's side.

[Thrazejin]

Anyway, Jaina was a good girl, now she is angry, Horde has to prepare for it, Jaina is coming.

[Zulkhan]

No. The majority of the trolls and prominent tauren spearheaded the rebellion, followed by only a handful of orcs(ie Eithrigg and Saurfang, though more verbally than through their actions).

The majority of the orcs did what they are best at; fight for a wrong cause, drop the cause and banner of the wrong cause once defeated and put on a new shirt. They then continue saying they didn't do it, blaming the previous group they are no longer part of and wait for another wrong cause to fight for.

Bold and slightly biased arguing but ultimately wrong and misguided, as you clearly ignore the existence of a blue post confirming the majority of the orcs being part of the rebellion. Kosak also pointed out that the vast majority of the True Horde was made of Blackrock, Dragonmaw and Mag'har. While poorly represented in-game, there are indeed grunts and various orc npcs in SoO to somehow show that, let alone those who left Orgrimmar to find refuge in Razor Hill. Blizzard even released the short-story of a Dragonmaw orc, explaining quite clearly the motivations followed by an "average" orc to join the Rebellion over Garrosh's True Horde.

The word from Blizzard was that the majority of the Horde itself sided with Vol'jin's rebellion, which I would take to mean the majority of all its constituent races.

The statement was specific to the orc members, not the whole Horde.

[Almatari]

What's up with Jainas attitude towards the horde all of the sudden?

Terrible writng

This. Blizzard cannot write believable characters for shit. Their characters are something out of a Saturday morning cartoon. They lack any substantial depth or nuance to their personalities or choices. It's either they're a bigot (which is an easy type of person to hate) or they're just batshit insane. They couldn't figure out what to do with Jaina since she was basically just sitting in Theramore doing nothing so they decided to make her both intensely hateful towards the Horde and out of her mind crazy.

In Blizzard's world, it's either you blindly accept everyone and turn the other cheek or you hate everyone and want to wipe them off the face of the earth.
That's the level of character development that we can expect from the writers. The lore went to hell in Cataclysm and has been rotting there ever since.

[Aucald]

The statement was specific to the orc members, not the whole Horde.

Do you have a source on that one? I've seen it expressed as the Horde as a whole, but not specifically speaking of the Orcish involvement with the True Horde.

[Zulkhan]

Do you have a source on that one? I've seen it expressed as the Horde as a whole, but not specifically speaking of the Orcish involvement with the True Horde.

I can't find the source right now but I have the exact bit wrote by Bashiok:

Some orcs have stood by Garrosh's side. You've seen and fought them in Siege of Orgrimmar; however, a majority of the orcs stood with the Horde and against Garrosh's vision of a "pure" Horde, one that is made entirely of, or at least entirely led by, orcs and orcs alone.

It was Kosak instead who said that Blackrock and Dragonmaw are what made most of Garrosh's army.

[Aucald]

I can't find the source right now but I have the exact bit wrote by Bashiok:



It was Kosak instead who said that Blackrock and Dragonmaw are what made most of Garrosh's army.

Ah, found it here: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...4060?page=4#65. That's a good bit to know, thanks for the exact wording.

[tranquilium]

Alright that makes sense, sucks about Theramore but I honestly expected more out of her than just basic anger/everyones at fault lol.
Props to Baine for going against Garrosh and warning Jaina that Garrosh was going to attack her.

Erm, look, during the event, she get to see one of her oldest friend (Rhonin) sacrificing himself to teleport her and his wife to safety and afterward, she gets to see the disfigured/glassed remained of another her old friend and apprentice and then have her remains crumbling into ashes in her arm. Repeat this for every single person in theramoore. Also remember these are the folks that has been with her since warcraft III and probably fought by her side against countless threats and they all know each other personally.

Basically, Garrosh and by extension horde up and right murdered Jaina's entire family/friends/closest associated in the most gruesome manner possible and she gets to watch the aftermath at close and personal. I think her reaction is actually pretty understandable.

[Aucald]

Erm, look, during the event, she get to see one of her oldest friend (Rhonin) sacrificing himself to teleport her and his wife to safety and afterward, she gets to see the disfigured/glassed remained of another her old friend and apprentice and then have her remains crumbling into ashes in her arm. Repeat this for every single person in theramoore. Also remember these are the folks that has been with her since warcraft III and probably fought by her side against countless threats and they all know each other personally.

Basically, Garrosh and by extension horde up and right murdered Jaina's entire family/friends/closest associated in the most gruesome manner possible and she gets to watch the aftermath at close and personal. I think her reaction is actually pretty understandable.

I think without the inclusion of her status in the "War Crimes" novel this thread is missing context. If you don't read any of the tie-in material then her progression from MoP to WoD to Legion is pretty linear and understandable - but in "War Crimes" she actually seemed to get over many of her issues with Theramore and even reconciled with Kalecgos over how far her hatred had pushed her. This change in her status was seemingly dropped in WoD (though she was barely featured in that expansion) and completely excluded in Legion. That is the primary reason for the disconnect in her behavior.

[Guntank17]

I think without the inclusion of her status in the "War Crimes" novel this thread is missing context. If you don't read any of the tie-in material then her progression from MoP to WoD to Legion is pretty linear and understandable - but in "War Crimes" she actually seemed to get over many of her issues with Theramore and even reconciled with Kalecgos over how far her hatred had pushed her. This change in her status was seemingly dropped in WoD (though she was barely featured in that expansion) and completely excluded in Legion. That is the primary reason for the disconnect in her behavior.

Which makes me fear that Blizzard wants people to hate Jaina as utterly and expediently as possible because they intend to pair Kalec with some other new character in Legion (or with Tyrygosa or Anveena again) and wants this other woman to look saintly by comparison, or some other really stupid reason that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual Lore.