Are there really only one Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden?

[Deathknightish]

This alternate timeline story already gave me a headache but it gave me a migraine when I thought of this:

The Burning Legion transcends all realities. The Burning Legion you get is the same every time, that means ONE Kil'Jaeden and ONE Archimonde.

The problem I have with that is, they weren't the only sons of whoever gave birth to them, we also have Velen.

We have at the very least two Velen, and the WoD one sacrificed himself for us. It's safe to say that there are more Velens out there.

Considering the fate of the alternate characters we met in WoD aren't THAT far off our timeline, surely Velen in other realities must have two siblings, Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden or whatever their names were before they turned Eredar, who give in to the offering of great power, soooooo... what happens to them? Considering the Draenei in WoD seem to have fled from the Burning Legion as well I don't think the answer is as simple as "The BL didn't bother with the draenei in other timelines".

[iamthedevil]

They probably died, like AU Grom's wife, or were never born like Garrosh.

[Felrane]

Even if there were. Archy/kil'j are from the alpha timeline so they are the only true ones. Any timeline splits those version are going to collapse in on themselves at some point and dont really matter. Unless they retconned how the timeline work.

[Franzy]

Maybe all the different reality versions got ripped out of their reality and merged into one when they took Sargeras' deal.

[Deathknightish]

Maybe all the different reality versions got ripped out of their reality and merged into one when they took Sargeras' deal.

Hmm that's a good speculation, never thought of that but surely the BL can do something like that considering they transcend everything and just love to rip out souls and put them into others.

So maybe Archie and Kiljay are super versions of themselves? That's quite a nice fantasy to have.

[munkeyinorbit]

no.

When you turn into demon or demonic force then your essence binds with what is already in the nether. So when archimonde and KJ were made more powerful by sageras, their normal selfs are obliterated while their essences are joined onto the demon archie and KJ. So the demon archie and archimonde are all the normal archie and KJ that accepted sagerases deal all rolled into one. In those universes where they do not turn they still exist (unless they died in another way) as a normal person.

[BananaHandsB]

surely Velen in other realities must have two siblings

What other realities are you referring to?

[Cronovey]

I'll pose a more interesting question while we're at it:

Warlords of Draenor supposedly takes place in the past, roughly ~25-30 years. When we kill Archimonde in mythic, it's done inside the Twisting Nether, which is the place that demons can be killed permanently, so Archimonde should be completely dead. However, he still invades Mount Hyjal ~20 years in the future in our timeline now. So either he didn't die when killed in the Twisting Nether, as he should have, or the battle at Mount Hyjal should never happened in the original timeline, which means alliances weren't made, Night Elves didn't lose their immortality, etc, unless there are some really weird paradox things going on here.

What's the deal with that nonsense? I suppose you could just explain it away as a weird time travel thing, but it seems like a weird oversight.

@OP As for the question at hand, the events happening in Warlord's version of Draenor are also after the events have (presumably) taken place on Argus in the other timeline. I would assume that the demonic versions of themselves merged in the Nether, which is why you don't see multiples of them running around. In fact, it's entirely possible that after their defeats (Sunwell Plateau and Mount Hyjal) the versions that were "killed" in our timeline may have just inhabited their own bodies from another timeline and merged their collective knowledge, similar to how demon hunters and regular demons have "immortal demon souls" that survive until they find another hospitable body.

[LexiSwe]

But I am not exactly sure why Archimonde and Kil Jaeden wants to transcend through all realities. I mean, isn't it a huge weakness? I mean, if multiple universe theory applies. If even 1 universe in 1 million are able to kill Archimonde and Kil Jaeden and do those expel /ban (by the holy light you bastards) thing against them. Then they are screwed forever, right?

[BananaHandsB]

I'll pose a more interesting question while we're at it:

Warlords of Draenor supposedly takes place in the past, roughly ~25-30 years. When we kill Archimonde in mythic, it's done inside the Twisting Nether, which is the place that demons can be killed permanently, so Archimonde should be completely dead. However, he still invades Mount Hyjal ~20 years in the future in our timeline now. So either he didn't die when killed in the Twisting Nether, as he should have, or the battle at Mount Hyjal should never happened in the original timeline, which means alliances weren't made, Night Elves didn't lose their immortality, etc, unless there are some really weird paradox things going on here.

What's the deal with that nonsense? I suppose you could just explain it away as a weird time travel thing, but it seems like a weird oversight.

The two timelines are completely separate. Think of them as separate dimensions. If you've ever watched the show sliders, it should make some more sense (hilariously bad 90s show, but kinda awesome at the same time). WoD Draenor is more a separate reality that happens to be set in the past when we get there. Events occurring there do not effect the original timeline, which has, in some sense already taken place.

[Deathknightish]

no.

When you turn into demon or demonic force then your essence binds with what is already in the nether. So when archimonde and KJ were made more powerful by sageras, their normal selfs are obliterated while their essences are joined onto the demon archie and KJ. So the demon archie and archimonde are all the normal archie and KJ that accepted sagerases deal all rolled into one. In those universes where they do not turn they still exist (unless they died in another way) as a normal person.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

- - - Updated - - -

What other realities are you referring to?

I was thinking all the realities that Wrathion wants to pull horde from to defend against the Legion, for instance, but surely there are millions of different alternate universes.

[Nurvus]

Even if they transcend realities, it's pretty much impossible for them to also transcend time.

So either a) our intrusion in past AU draenor had us mess with the legion's plans of 25-30 years ago
or b) somehow the "present" Archimonde got a helping hand from Bronze/Infinite Dragonflight.

[Cronovey]

The two timelines are completely separate. Think of them as separate dimensions. If you've ever watched the show sliders, it should make some more sense (hilariously bad 90s show, but kinda awesome at the same time). WoD Draenor is more a separate reality that happens to be set in the past when we get there. Events occurring there do not effect the original timeline, which has, in some sense already taken place.

The problem with that is the whole demons/Twisting Nether nonsense. All demons share the same demon soul, which returns to the Twisting Nether when they are killed, unless they are killed within the Twisting Nether.

This means that either the Archimonde summoned to AU Draenor already knew of our heroes because we'd slain him in the past (future to us) or that the version at Hyjal should have known about his defeat at Hellfire Citadel. One way or the other, Archimonde should already have had knowledge of our characters and how he was defeated the first time, and it just causes all kinds of weird nonsense.

[BananaHandsB]

I was thinking all the realities that Wrathion wants to pull horde from to defend against the Legion, for instance, but surely there are millions of different alternate universes.

This is something I've wondered. Are there essentially infinite alternate universes? I think this would not make sense with the current story. Instead I have to believe there is one main timeline, and through some chromie/bronze dragonflight mischief, we managed to create a second. It would make sense for there to be more, but it would have to be a somewhat conscious act by the bronze dragonflight. With infinite universes, we run into all sorts of problems.

[Deleted]

The problem with that is the whole demons/Twisting Nether nonsense. All demons share the same demon soul, which returns to the Twisting Nether when they are killed, unless they are killed within the Twisting Nether.

This means that either the Archimonde summoned to AU Draenor already knew of our heroes because we'd slain him in the past (future to us) or that the version at Hyjal should have known about his defeat at Hellfire Citadel. One way or the other, Archimonde should already have had knowledge of our characters and how he was defeated the first time, and it just causes all kinds of weird nonsense.

Let me put it this way.

First he invades mount hyjal. Then we go back in time to kill him years before that.

Everytime we do mount hyjal we go back to the time before we killed him in the past.

It makes sense, its just hard to explain.

Whenever you do content from previous expansions you go back in time


I get that by killing him before mount hyjal it should not happen, but when you go to mount hyjal today, its in a time where we have not killed him in the past

[Qualia]

I'll pose a more interesting question while we're at it:

Warlords of Draenor supposedly takes place in the past, roughly ~25-30 years. When we kill Archimonde in mythic, it's done inside the Twisting Nether, which is the place that demons can be killed permanently, so Archimonde should be completely dead. However, he still invades Mount Hyjal ~20 years in the future in our timeline now. So either he didn't die when killed in the Twisting Nether, as he should have, or the battle at Mount Hyjal should never happened in the original timeline, which means alliances weren't made, Night Elves didn't lose their immortality, etc, unless there are some really weird paradox things going on here.

What's the deal with that nonsense? I suppose you could just explain it away as a weird time travel thing, but it seems like a weird oversight.

You are getting it wrong.

Only AU Draenor was in the past. The demons, the Twisting Nether & MU everything are in the present. Archimonde was bringing us to current Nether, just like how Mages opening portal to Azeroth from AU Draenor didn't bring us to past Azeroth. Additionally, Archimonde wasn't travelling back in time in our main universe per se. He travelled to an alternate universe that was in the past - thus, events happening there don't affect our past.

Basically, Archimonde timeline goes like this, to make it easier to understand:

WoTA => (some thousands years) => Battle of Mt. Hyjal => Got exploded by wisp => Go back to the Nether, reform his body => Finish reforming body => Go to AU Draenor that is in the past => Fight us => Bring us into the Nether => Got killed.

In that sequence (too lazy to put the years into it, but you get the point).

This is something I've wondered. Are there essentially infinite alternate universes? I think this would not make sense with the current story. Instead I have to believe there is one main timeline, and through some chromie/bronze dragonflight mischief, we managed to create a second. It would make sense for there to be more, but it would have to be a somewhat conscious act by the bronze dragonflight. With infinite universes, we run into all sorts of problems.

Yes, there are. Blizzard confirmed it many times, with the most recent being what was stated in "Illidan". Why wouldn't it make sense?

Edit: missed this

This means that either the Archimonde summoned to AU Draenor already knew of our heroes because we'd slain him in the past (future to us) or that the version at Hyjal should have known about his defeat at Hellfire Citadel. One way or the other, Archimonde should already have had knowledge of our characters and how he was defeated the first time, and it just causes all kinds of weird nonsense.

It's fair to assume the Archimonde we faced at AU Draenor knew about his defeat at Hyjal - it's his past after all. What's so nonsense about it?

[BananaHandsB]

Yes, there are. Blizzard confirmed it many times, with the most recent being what was stated in "Illidan". Why wouldn't it make sense?

The multitude of key characters/heroes that could perpetually be pulled from alternate timelines by the bronze dragonflight to solve all our problems seems like the biggest issue to me.

As far as I've heard from blizz, all they've confirmed is there are multiple timelines and the legion transcends them, not that there are more than 2.

[Cronovey]

You are getting it wrong.

Only AU Draenor was in the past. The demons, the Twisting Nether & MU everything are in the present. Archimonde was bringing us to current Nether, just like how Mages opening portal to Azeroth from AU Draenor didn't bring us to past Azeroth. Additionally, Archimonde wasn't travelling back in time in our main universe per se. He travelled to an alternate universe that was in the past - thus, events happening there don't affect our past.

Basically, Archimonde timeline goes like this, to make it easier to understand:

WoTA => (some thousands years) => Battle of Mt. Hyjal => Got exploded by wisp => Go back to the Nether, reform his body => Finish reforming body => Go to AU Draenor that is in the past => Fight us => Bring us into the Nether => Got killed.

In that sequence (too lazy to put the years into it, but you get the point).

I suppose that sort of makes sense, if you assume that demons can travel through time as they wish. That's kind of a scary prospect though, and begs the question why they haven't just traveled back to change other events. It just leaves a lot of weird loopholes where you can say "Why didn't they change the outcome of the War of the Ancients?" and "Why didn't they change the events at Mount Hyjal?" and so on. The whole thing just reeks of loopholes being left open everywhere to pull any story out any time they want.

It's fair to assume the Archimonde we faced at AU Draenor knew about his defeat at Hyjal - it's his past after all. What's so nonsense about it?

The nonsense is that you think he'd have come up with a better way to counter us if he already knew of his other defeat. It seems incredibly strange that we could straight up defeat a being of nearly limitless power not once, but twice, because of his own stupidity essentially. It means he should have been aware of roughly how powerful the player characters are and you think he would have fortified the citadel in a much more tailored method than what he did. I would have been much happier to just see a boss with a completely different name than to see the exact same boss using poor tactics against people he's already fought and lost to before. Then we could have avoided all this time traveling Nether business altogether.

The multitude of key characters/heroes that could perpetually be pulled from alternate timelines by the bronze dragonflight to solve all our problems seems like the biggest issue to me.

As far as I've heard from blizz, all they've confirmed is there are multiple timelines and the legion transcends them, not that there are more than 2.

That issue has already been solved though; when the Aspects teamed up to stop Deathwing in Dragon Soul, they became mortal and began losing a lot of the powers granted to them by the titan keepers. This is why the whole travel path to Draenor is set up by using an artifact and then gathering a ton of Epoch Stones on the Timeless Isle to power it; the dragons simply didn't have the power to just do it themselves.

[Deleted]

I'll pose a more interesting question while we're at it:

Warlords of Draenor supposedly takes place in the past, roughly ~25-30 years. When we kill Archimonde in mythic, it's done inside the Twisting Nether, which is the place that demons can be killed permanently, so Archimonde should be completely dead. However, he still invades Mount Hyjal ~20 years in the future in our timeline now. So either he didn't die when killed in the Twisting Nether, as he should have, or the battle at Mount Hyjal should never happened in the original timeline, which means alliances weren't made, Night Elves didn't lose their immortality, etc, unless there are some really weird paradox things going on here.

What's the deal with that nonsense? I suppose you could just explain it away as a weird time travel thing, but it seems like a weird oversight.

They (as in Garrosh and Kairoz?) connected that past version of Draenor to our present Azeroth, and killing Archimonde in the future (it was in our future at that point) doesn’t undo our past. We were not timetravelling. Only Garrosh did. The whole AU Draenor didn’t happen in our past but it happens in our present.

As for the events of AU timeline: yes, you are right, the AU (1) Azeroth didn’t have the orcish invasions, other AU Azeroths might still have them but in neither AU Azeroth which is in the past like (1) will get Archimonde destroying Nordrassil, however someone else still possibly can cause all that.

[BananaHandsB]

That issue has already been solved though; when the Aspects teamed up to stop Deathwing in Dragon Soul, they became mortal and began losing a lot of the powers granted to them by the titan keepers. This is why the whole travel path to Draenor is set up by using an artifact and then gathering a ton of Epoch Stones on the Timeless Isle to power it; the dragons simply didn't have the power to just do it themselves.

What about the aspects/dragon soul/etc in other timelines? If the timelines are infinite, the same/similar things could happen in every timeline/universe.