The hardest final expansion encounter so far?

[awbaker]

Would be interesting to see a larger poll with each end boss for each tier when it was current. Limiting it to the expansion end boss leaves out a ton of other end bosses that deserve come consideration.

[Lime]

It depends on how you judge encounters.

Going into KT with full gear made him appear a lot easier, however, that wasn't even close to being the full picture. It was a 40 man raid and like all 40 man raids, loot barely dropped. The reason so many see 4H as the harder encounter is because after weeks after fighting it, more and more people got geared up. If you, even through sheer luck, killed 4H during the first week (purely hypothetical), then I highly doubt you'd considering KT to be as easy as you think. Gear helped bridge the difficulty gap. And gearing up was a massive part of 40 man raid's difficulty.

KJ would be a more accurate example than what some would describe KT as. No matter what, KJ would always be easier than Muru (prenerf). That's not to say he's a joke of a boss, either, but SWP's difficuly was not due to KJ.

LK... A difficult and solid fight through and through. I would go through why it was so difficult, but I'd be repeating things said 100 times over in the thread.

DW was a joke compared to Firelands Ragnaros, sorry.

Garrosh? I can't give an answer here as that was around the time my main got banned and I lost interest in high end raiding. I didn't see nor complete M Garrosh (although, I guess it was Heroic back then) until after my guild was geared, so my results wouldn't be anything near accurate.

Arch (HFC) probably takes the cake here, even though I voted for KT because I see the gearing progression as difficulty itself. Anyways, this was a very mechanically difficult fight. Do not compare what you see now to what the first guilds had to put up with. This was the first fight in a long time that I looked at and thought, "WTF...?". I still find those early kill videos impressive.

So out of pure mechanics, I give it to Arch of HFC. Getting the gear to properly do KT puts it up there as well.

And even though they weren't final bosses, I always give credit to Firelands Ragnaros (similar to Arch's reason) and 4H (similar to KT reasons). Both great encounters that achieved their difficulty without the use of bugs.

[brunnor]

It depends on your definition of "hardest". If by hardest you mean the most difficulty to understand and deal with mechanics, then Archi by a long shot. If you mean hardest by hardest to actually kill in general, KT and KJ are a pretty even split.

As the game has gone on over the years, so have add-ons and general player skill. Things like Void zones have been used 10004108923812903 times by now so the thought of Lady B's VZ killing people would be unheard of, but since it was THE void zone it's hard to related correctly in terms of ability difficulty. Add-ons(and tons of beta testing/fan sites) are a HUGE thing that force enounters to be harder than they ever were or they would just be steamrolled in minutes. Looking at a fight like Thaddius or Loatheb for example, if there was WA/BW/DBM back then, to the levels we have today, that fight would have been a joke. It would tell you exactly what to do as soon as the cast happened etc. Also, dungeon journal makes abilities a joke to understand now too.

Fights are more difficult now because they have to be due to things listed above, but the fights from years ago were harder.

[Relapses]

I think a bit of frame of reference is needed here. Mythic Archimonde pre-ludicrous Legendary Ring damage and months of Mythic HFC gear was a much, much different encounter.

Lich King was also pretty difficult but had limited attempts and I think they may have had more of an impact on the longevity of the encounter than the difficulty itself. Garrosh pre-nerf was also pretty hard, though it was disproportionately more difficult on 10M than it was on 25M. Heroic Ragnaros pre-Geyser removal was likely the most difficult encounter from Cata, though Spine pre-nerf was pretty rough. Sinestra was also pretty tough. DW himself had a few retard checks but he was pretty easy if you had the DPS to beat Spine. KJ before he was nerfed was pretty hard, too, though a lot of the difficulty in SWP was offset by Shaman stacking.

In terms of strictly end-expansion boss difficulty, from most to least, I'd say it's: Archimonde (pre-795 ring) = / = LK -> Garrosh (10H) -> KJ -> DW/KT.

[sheggaro]

Kil'Jaeden.

I'm looking forward to fighting that son of a bitch again.

2nd hardest is probably Archimonde.

[Nitros14]

Archimonde is definitely the hardest one here for the first kill mechanically and tuning wise. It'd be interesting to see how many killed him if everyone had to fight him with no legendary ring and no item level upgrades like Method did. They did 472 pulls over 12 days, way more than any of the other bosses took. Paragon showed they took only 190 pulls for Lich King for example.

Kil'jaeden was a somewhat difficult boss to execute but like M'uru the hardest part was in hitting the DPS checks undergeared to get to 55% and 25% before a third darkness cast.

The Lich King was tuned very hard, but had two somewhat easy phases mechanically. The difficulty spiked during defile+val'kyrs and was otherwise not overwhelming. Limited attempts propped him up a bit.

I don't think anyone that did it considered Madness of Deathwing particularly hard.

Garrosh is probably the second hardest on this list, partially from the sheer length. Execution in the first transition and phase 3 very difficult. Very difficult dps marks to hit.

Kel'Thuzad wasn't easy, objectively the hardest tuned encounter in the zone.

Vs the 80 version more people are familiar with he was different in the following ways:

Roughly triple the HP and damage vs the 80 version when dps/HP changes are taken into account. I.E. the 80 version basically had a 66% HP and damage debuff on it.
5 minute phase one, the more intense last two minutes were cut from the 80 version
Frostbolt could one shot the tank on a missed interrupt
Most abilities cast more often, except frostbolt volley
Had to spread out 40 people in the same size room
Frost Blast ticked for 130% of hp not 104%
Taunt immune
Chains of Kel'Thuzad mind controlled his current tank, in addition to 4 other people and wiped threat.
Shadow Fissure ticked faster
Began phase 3 at 45% not 40%
Guardians of Icecrown could be CC"d, but Kel'Thuzad dispelled all CC if more than 3 were CC'd.
Guardians of Icecrown gained blood tap stacks on switching targets as well as time.

You also have to take into consideration melee range taunt, lack of defensive cooldowns, no bloodlust, alliance/horde not getting shamans/paladins, lack of aoe healing (very dangerous for frost blast on melee)

Here's some thoughts from the time

[OrcsRLame]

The execution requirements for fights like KT, KJ and LK would be considered a joke by today's standards. Honestly, the ilvl difference with between Naxx 40 gear and the rest of the gear in the game was so small, I think if Serenity existed in their current state back when Naxx came out, they would have literally cleared the entire zone in a few hours.

It's a shame I can't find the original stats for most of the vanilla gear. Everything on wowhead is post stat squish. Even so, I doubt that the 12 ilvl difference between tier 2 and tier 3 would literally be the difference between an encounter being impossible for the best guild and possible for dozens or hundreds of others. That's a smaller ilvl difference than normal->heroic of the same raid in WoD. I would think that proper play and extreme class stacking would more than make up the difference there.

I don't suppose anyone has a website that lists pre stat squish stat values for Vanilla gear?

[hulkgor]

People are crazy brain washed if they think Kel'thuzad is the hardest end boss ever... Most of Naxx 40 was beaten in 2 weeks if you exclude the ridiculous gear gaps on shit like 4Horsemen.

You sir, are delusional.

[Doomchicken]

I suppose if we're talking factual then it would be best to see how many wipes the top 10 guilds in the world had for each boss. On a personal level however being that I've only done Garrosh and Archimonde on their hardest difficulties I would have to go with Archi.

[Greenmagoo]

I wonder how much of the pole is skewed by players who raided in later expansions.

[moveth]

End of Expansion I would say Lich King just because of the limited attempts (But that was artificial difficulty... so... yaknow..)

However the hardest bosses are not end of xpac bosses. Ragnaros and Lei Shen come to mind since both were insanely harder than their end of expansion counterparts.

[Sliske]

You sir, are delusional.

9 bosses went down in the span of 10 days.

If you exclude obscene gear checks, such as the ridiculous 4 horsemen boss, all of it dies in about 3 and a half weeks.

You, and many other people, have been brain washed by top 5 and top 10 videos on youtube. You hear some moron in LFR gear shouting "guyzzz, four horsemen was the hardest boss ever, naxx was hardest raid" and think it must be true.

In reality, Naxx was not that difficult of a raid. The problem was it was the first raid that randomly required 8 tanks for a boss at the latter half of the raid. If you remove the weeks spent getting 8 warriors their tier set bonus of t3, you instantly chop WEEKS of longevity off the raid. No one was even progressing four horsemen without 8 warriors with the dreadnaught set bonus, which means that Naxx was effectively two raids in one.


The first stage of progress ended when you reach 4HM. The final boss killed before 4HM was Loatheb. What a surprise, he was a major gear check too, and took 14 days to kill.

So, removing the two giant gear check bosses, you arrive at the following. Keep in mind the raid was released 20th June, 2006.

Between the 20th and 30th of June, 9 bosses die. The next boss to die is on the 3rd of July. Then, 14 days later (Gear check, hoooooooooo) Loatheb dies on the 17th of July. Progress at this point ends. Every wing boss except 4HM is dead. Sapphiron and KT are obviously blocked off. Everyone now begins poaching tanks and gearing new ones.

Over a month later, on the 25th of August, 4HM dies. Since the majority of Naxx was on farm for most competant guilds within 10 days, the top 50-100 guilds had been farming T3 for 2 months at this point. Then, all the top guilds just swooped in and poached them. In a poaching incident not seen again until the Great Shaman Poaching of Sunwell Plataeu, a metric ass ton of guilds die because who the fuck can be bothered to get 8 NEW WARRIOR TANKS WITH T3 SET BONUSES, when they're just going to get poached by better guilds anyway?

So, anyway, 2 months after the raid launches, the gear requirements for 4HM are met, and they fall over like a sack of shit. 7 days later Sapphiron does the same on the 1st of September, KT dies on the 7th of September. Raid over.

So setting aside the whole argument of 4HM and KT being hard, I was right anyway - most of Naxx 40 was beaten in about 2 weeks. 10 days to be exact.

If you have trouble counting, 15 bosses are in Naxx. 9 died in 10 days, thats less than 2 weeks. 9 is a majority of 15.

So you tell me. Was naxx a hard raid? Lets keep in mind, over all gear was MUCH more important in vanilla, especially for tanks and healers. You tell me if beating 9/15 in Naxx, with mostly AQ40 and BWL gear, constitutes the hardest raid ever, and also the hardest end boss ever. You tell me.

[Nitros14]

In reality, Naxx was not that difficult of a raid. The problem was it was the first raid that randomly required 8 tanks for a boss at the latter half of the raid. If you remove the weeks spent getting 8 warriors their tier set bonus of t3, you instantly chop WEEKS of longevity off the raid. No one was even progressing four horsemen without 8 warriors with the dreadnaught set bonus, which means that Naxx was effectively two raids in one.

I'm not going to argue Naxxramas was the hardest raid ever it's not.

That's not quite accurate about Four Horsemen though.

Many guilds killed it with six tanks with four piece tier 3+spell hit trinket to minimize taunt resists. Eight tanks was a workaround for guilds without all the geared tanks in case of taunt resists, could do it undergeared, some guilds even used ferals for it.

As I recall, death and taxes said they wiped on it for 56 days because they didn't realize there was a tiny safe zone in the middle of the room when the horsemen were positioned properly, where you could drop mark stacks. Not because a top guild couldn't manage to fit eight warriors in a raid.




Six groups.

It might've been a half interesting encounter at 80 if they hadn't removed the 20 second 75% shield wall the horsemen each did at 50% and 20%. And you know, made them have less than half the HP and damage they'd need to be tuned the same as 60.

[Deleted]

Comes down to tuning and the difficulty of doing mechanics. Archimonde was very unforgiving AND had tight tuning at the start until people got their rings so that you could get the most optimal timers. If Archimonde had limited attempts just like LK then Archimonde would have lived longer than LK, no question about it imo, especially if legendary rings weren't available so quickly after the release of HFC.

Imagine trying to do Archimonde with ~725 ilvl, no legendary rings, no wrought radar (cos come on you're pretty much negating a core part of the learning of the fight) AND a limited amount of tries. Yea I'm pretty sure Archimonde wins here, shame that most people did it with valor upgraded gear and the radar was readily available from the start.

[Sliske]

I'm not going to argue Naxxramas was the hardest raid ever it's not.

That's not quite accurate about Four Horsemen though.

Many guilds killed it with six tanks with four piece tier 3+spell hit trinket to minimize taunt resists. Eight tanks was a workaround for guilds without all the geared tanks, could do it undergeared, some guilds even used ferals for it.

As I recall, death and taxes said they wiped on it for 56 days because they didn't realize there was a tiny safe zone in the middle of the room when the horsemen were positioned properly, where you could drop mark stacks. Not because a top guild couldn't manage to fit eight warriors in a raid.




Six groups.

It might've been a half interesting encounter at 80 if they hadn't removed the 20 second 75% shield wall the horsemen each did at 50% and 20%. And you know, made them have less than half the HP and damage they'd need to be tuned the same as 60.

Not arguing with you that that happened, I just don't think that really niche shit like having to safe zone or get a specific trinket or 8 warrior tanks means the fight is hard. It means its badly designed, imo.

A fight should be hard based on mechanics, not how lucky you were on loot.

The logic of some of this people in this thread suggests that a boss that instantly kills you unless you have 750 item level, but if you have 750 ilvl, you instantly kill the boss, would be considered "the hardest boss ever" due to it probably requiring 3+ months to get 20 characters with warforged and upgraded gear in every single slot in a single raid.

Was Naxx hard? Of course, for its time. It was the hardest raid in vanilla. While players have increased amounts of tools to deal with stuff (such as everyone having spammable, efficient aoe heals) bosses also are tuned with that in mind. You don't really see bosses that often now a days that stop you based on healers not being able to cope. Its either mechanically complex, or a massive dps check. When both of those factors are present on a boss, you have one of the hardest bosses in the game.

I can't say any boss in Vanilla, if placed into the game now, would be both mechanically complex and a massive raid gear check.

Literally the only top end raider i've seen say vanilla raiding was harder than raiding is now, is Kungen, a guy who arguably isn't even a good tank himself if you analyse his logs in the past.

- - - Updated - - -

If Archimonde had limited attempts just like LK then Archimonde would have lived longer than LK, no question about it imo,

This is another factor. People weren't doing 600 attempts in a few days on Kel'Thuzad. It would probably be physically impossible to get everyone to run back, rebuff, reorganize and pull again that amount of times.

Compare that to now, where you die, a guy uses shadowmeld, mass rezzes everyone, you all flask and eat and are ready to go within 45 seconds.

The number of pulls now is actually insane relative to vanilla right up to even WoTLK.

TL;DR: People NEED to either come to terms with the fact that time taken does not equate to mechanically difficult, or either state it outright so we can dismiss their useless post. Getting a perfectly geared Diablo 3 character is not hard - it just takes months. Grinding is not difficult.

[TheFirstOnes]

In terms of gameplay, ARTHAS EASILY! Let's not forget heroic bro.

In terms of lore, Deathwing! This guy was pure madness, heroes had to take his backside while he flew everywhere, and even when the dragon soul hit his ass, he was able to still fight inside the malestrom, while looking like every good child actor grown up. So sad...

Archimonde could've been hard, if we never knew what the hell deathwing was to begin with...I mean...yah. While archimonde has the ability to destroy planets, idk...he got beat up fairly easily.

[OrcsRLame]

I suppose if we're talking factual then it would be best to see how many wipes the top 10 guilds in the world had for each boss. On a personal level however being that I've only done Garrosh and Archimonde on their hardest difficulties I would have to go with Archi.

There's a huge factor that you're not considering. Player skill has increased astronomically since Vanilla.

If you took a boss like Mythic Mannoroth, tuned him for Naxx 40 gear and level 60 and slapped him into Vanilla, he would not have been killed by any guilds until TBC, maybe even WOTLK. The game is astronomically, ludicrously harder than it was in Vanilla; and that's because the players have gotten so efficient at digesting content. The game has had to evolve along with player skill. This is self evident when comparing footage from Vanilla to footage from WoD.

Raiding in its current incarnation started with Heroic Ragnaros.

[Monteverdi]

Arthas by far

[Doomchicken]

There's a huge factor that you're not considering. Player skill has increased astronomically since Vanilla.

If you took a boss like Mythic Mannoroth, tuned him for Naxx 40 gear and level 60 and slapped him into Vanilla, he would not have been killed by any guilds until TBC, maybe even WOTLK. The game is astronomically, ludicrously harder than it was in Vanilla; and that's because the players have gotten so efficient at digesting content. The game has had to evolve along with player skill. This is self evident when comparing footage from Vanilla to footage from WoD.

Raiding in its current incarnation started with Heroic Ragnaros.

Keep in mind I'm talking about actual attempts and not weeks to kill. I realize some of the old content took "longer" in terms of time due to skill level and artificial bullshit gating. While it wouldn't be perfect you could take the number of wipes and number of mechanics and still compare them accordingly. Example: Lets say the top 10 Guilds in WoD on average killed Mythic archimonde out after 400 wipes and Top 10 guilds in Wrath killed lich king on average in 250 wipes, then one could argue that Archimonde is harder due to the sheer number of average attempts the best guilds in the world took to kill each end boss.

[Moggie]

surprised not many people so far think Deathwing was all that difficult.

After Spine, DW was a walk in the fiery park.