Arcane talents?

[Deleted]

Hey guys, I've been trying to decide on a class for Legion and I'm interested in Arcane. I like the fantasy and zooming around with Blink and Displacement, but the rotation is a bit too boring for my tastes. So I was wondering, can I take talents like Nether Tempest to spruce it up a bit? Or would I be doing significantly (not just 1-5%) shittier DPS?

Thanks

[Torian kel]

You'll be doing way shittier dps just by playing Arcane

[Deleted]

Arcane is terrible at the beginning of every expansion, but its probably going to be the best at some point

just go fire, like every other brainless generic mage.

and remember to tell everyone how hard the spec is, and how much of a god you are.

Or go frost if you like to think outside the box and not be following the retarded circlejerk known as fucking fire mage, but that's too much to ask from a retail player

[Torian kel]

Arcane is terrible at the beginning of every expansion, but its probably going to be the best at some point

just go fire, like every other brainless generic mage.

and remember to tell everyone how hard the spec is, and how much of a god you are.

Or go frost if you like to think outside the box and not be following the retarded circlejerk known as fucking fire mage, but that's too much to ask from a retail player

Careful not to cut yourself on that edge kiddo :^)

[Deleted]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Frost is fun too, but after looking at icy animations and hearing chilly sound effects for years with my DK, I was looking for something fresh Fire is alright, but the way it plays is just a bit too random for my tastes. I care about DPS, but not to an extent that I will play a specific spec or class to be the very best for like a month, so I will probably just pick those talents shame though, I thought Blizzard said the more complex options would do slightly more DPS and this just encourages more of the same old Arcane Blast/Missiles/Barrage

[Lebanese Dude]

You'll be doing way shittier dps just by playing Arcane

10% less DPS on ST in simulations isn't 'way shittier', especially when Arcane has many nuances that can't be properly simulated like banking AM's for Touch of the Magi procs.

Jesus the dramatic licensing by players is ridiculous. It's especially hilarious because Arcane actually outperforms Fire on cleave and AOE, with burst AOE that isn't dependent on combustion.

[Hctaz]

10% less DPS on ST in simulations isn't 'way shitter'.

Jesus the dramatic licensing by players is ridiculous. It's especially hilarious because Arcane actually outperforms Fire on cleave and AOE.

...wh-what? Alright dude I'll hire you but just because you're Arcane you're getting 10% less pay than Fire mage over here. Instead of 280k you're only making 258k and also you're being paid less than Balance druid over there. Get rekt?

It's pretty bad. So bad that you wouldn't take it over Fire. Trust me.

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Fire is alright, but the way it plays is just a bit too random for my tastes.

It's hardly any more random than most specs and a lot less random than you think I promise. Back in the day before Fireblast I'd agree with you but since then it's way more consistent. You have much more leeway over when you actually get a hot steak proc than simply spamming fireball and praying. There's also the guarantee that even if you're incredibly unlucky with a string of fireball non crits, you will get one eventually due to the 10% increased crit chance on fireball for every time fireball fails to crit that stacks and last until you get a crit and one is all you need to get hotstreak since you simply cast fireblast after one fireball hits and BOOM Pyroblast that monkey.

If you want I can always help you out with fire. It could be you're potentially playing the spec wrong? I feel like that's the only way it would really feel as random as you make it out to be.

[Deleted]

Arcane is terrible for this whole expansion, its probably never going to be the best at any point.

Fixed that for ya.

If you play Arcane and get kicked from a dungeon, you'll know exactly why they did it.

[Lebanese Dude]

...wh-what? Alright dude I'll hire you but just because you're Arcane you're getting 10% less pay than Fire mage over here. Instead of 280k you're only making 258k and also you're being paid less than Balance druid over there. Get rekt?

It's pretty bad. So bad that you wouldn't take it over Fire. Trust me.

Picking a spec due to damage rather than mechanics is pretty stupid considering tuning isn't finished yet.

Even so even if Fire remained slightly more superior (like 5%), that's still simulated DPS and is no way applicable to real life situations. Fire is chosen because it's convenient in doing everything well, not because it's the best at it. It's still worse than Arcane in cleaves and AOE and those take up a significant portion of most encounters.

[Hctaz]

Picking a spec due to damage rather than mechanics is pretty stupid considering tuning isn't finished yet.

Even so even if Fire remained slightly more superior (like 5%), that's still simulated DPS and is no way applicable to real life situations. Fire is chosen because it's convenient in doing everything well, not because it's the best at it. It's still worse than Arcane in cleaves and AOE and those take up a significant portion of most encounters.

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All these FOTM scrubs thinking they'll reach the same values as simulations. How hilarious.

But once again, why would you even bother with playing a spec that isn't a jack of all trades? It's like Frost vs Unholy dks right now. Even if they were consistently doing even dps, Unholy just has a better toolkit and will be able to handle more situations of varying degrees. Arcane doing less single target damage will have to have a significant advantage over fire in most other places just to be an option. If fire can do most things just as well as arcane and can do a lot more things better than arcane there just won't be a point to play the spec.

Edit to your edit: I'm a dk main and will be playing one in Legion so no FotM here. I just know how raiding works. In regards to your statement about projected simulations: I could also probably outdps 80-85% of the playerbase with any spec and any class given 5 hours to practice the spec. On top of that, if you're insinuating that these players suck so badly at fire that they can't play it nearly optimally then what difference does the spec that they play make? Fire is braindead. Frost is braindead. Arcane is most braindead. Yeah it might take them less time to learn Arcane but I could hand my mother who has never played a video game EVER my keyboard and mouse and I bet she could play any of the three specs as equally "good". Probably around the 40% range with arcane possibly being 5-6% higher. Still won't make up for the shortcomings.

AND on top of that: If these players are interested in learning to improve their play, why would they stick with Arcane which has a skillcap and damage output lower than fire? They should learn the more complicated spec anyway especially if the potential is higher. They'll see more improvement to their damage this way.

[Deleted]

Picking a spec due to damage rather than mechanics is pretty stupid considering tuning isn't finished yet.

Even so even if Fire remained slightly more superior (like 5%), that's still simulated DPS and is no way applicable to real life situations. Fire is chosen because it's convenient in doing everything well, not because it's the best at it. It's still worse than Arcane in cleaves and AOE and those take up a significant portion of most encounters.

"Slightly"? 5% is lightyears ahead in raid content. Them leaving any other spec 5% below the classes' top spec is highly unacceptable. Arcane needs a flat 10-20% buff, and most importantly, its mana regen needs to be increased by at least 200-300%. MM and shadow both need a massive nerf, especially MM aoe.

[Lebanese Dude]

But once again, why would you even bother with playing a spec that isn't a jack of all trades? It's like Frost vs Unholy dks right now. Even if they were consistently doing even dps, Unholy just has a better toolkit and will be able to handle more situations of varying degrees. Arcane doing less single target damage will have to have a significant advantage over fire in most other places just to be an option. If fire can do most things just as well as arcane and can do a lot more things better than arcane there just won't be a point to play the spec.

I just told you Arcane does slightly better than Fire on cleaves and AOE, and does slightly worse on ST. That discrepancy goes down even further in favor of Arcane if you get the Legendary Kilt which adds another 7% to your DPS, more than any Fire Legendary.

Those simulations are for Patchwerk fights and really don't convey the true effectiveness of the specs either. In the best of cases, assuming you can play both well, you'll do fine.

Unless you're in a world first guild, that 10k difference in effective DPS won't make or break your raid. If you want to min/max, don't even play a mage in the first place, as they aren't top DPS right now.

I'm not even sure what you're referring to in regards to toolkit when Arcane has its own set of own unique abilities. Displacement gives you mobility and thus effectively renders the "instant-casting" benefit of Fire moot, especially when one considers that Fire typically burns/banks most of their instants for Combustion bursts.

Then there's Greater Invisibility which operates as a defensive on a GCD allowing you to bypass certain mechanics. That also applies to being able to blink 4 times.

What does Fire have for utility, other than being forced to blink to get a heal? Maybe Dragon's Breath for some AOE disorient on trash.

Oh and to answer your question, actually having fun is the entire point of playing the game. Fire isn't enjoyable for everyone. Arcane does well and if they like that gameplay they'll play it and there is justification for doing so. That's all there is to it.

Frankly I don't like how Fire takes the fun out of crits.

[Hctaz]

I just told you Arcane does slightly better than Fire on cleaves and AOE, and does slightly worse on ST. That discrepancy goes down even further in favor of Arcane if you get the Legendary Kilt which adds another 7% to your DPS, more than any Fire Legendary.

Those simulations are for Patchwerk fights and really don't convey the true effectiveness of the specs either.

I'm not even sure what you're referring to in regards to toolkit when Arcane has its own set of own unique abilities. Displacement gives you mobility and thus effectively renders the "instant-casting" benefit of Fire moot, especially when one considers that Fire typically burns/banks most of their instants for Combustion bursts.

Then there's Greater Invisibility which operates as a defensive on a GCD allowing you to bypass certain mechanics. That also applies to being able to blink 4 times.

What does Fire have for utility, other than being forced to blink to get a heal?

Look at it this way: Fire is 10% better at killing one mob than arcane, right? The boss is that one mob. So that's a factor yes? Now, what happens when a single add is introduced? Arcane will not pull ahead. It won't have time for its superior cleave to even matter since it will, at best, get maybe two barrages off before the add is dead. I can see Arcane being pretty good at 3-4 targets but unless those targets are up nearly constantly then it won't pull ahead of Fire's effective damage over all. Fire does not have zero cleave either so it has something to do in these situations to make it effective. Basically if there's like... an add spawn once every minute and the adds last for maybe 20 seconds... it just won't make the difference up. Fire will outperform.

Fire seems like it would have higher burst potential with Combustion as well. Forever chaining a guaranteed crit fireball into a guaranteed crit Pyroblast seems outrageously powerful. I don't know the duration of both Combustion and Arcane power but I assume AP lasts longer? If that's the case then it's definitely better at bursting down targets with a larger pool of health but if you don't get the full benefit of AP on that one target, your toolkit is effectively worse than Fire's at this job since Fire also has the added benefit of purely doing additional damage.

Fire has ways to cast on the move mind you. Ice Floes allows you to cast Fireball while running and the spec also still has blink. I don't know the trade off between the two specs, however. Like... if casting on the move is more important for fire than it is for arcane and what the implications of the dps increase on that would be. All I know is that fire has very VERY powerful instant cast abilities if used correctly and can essentially do it's full rotation pretty easily with one of two ice floe'd fireballs and good useage of fireblasts and hot streaks.


Since I don't play mage I have yet to evaluate the entirety of each other's toolkits against each other, but I have done this for Frost and Unholy and I can say if the disparity between usefulness is anywhere like it is between the dk specs, arcane will not be taken seriously.

[Lebanese Dude]

"Slightly"? 5% is lightyears ahead in raid content. Them leaving any other spec 5% below the classes' top spec is highly unacceptable. Arcane needs a flat 10-20% buff, and most importantly, its mana regen needs to be increased by at least 200-300%. MM and shadow both need a massive nerf, especially MM aoe.

5% on simulations is "highly unacceptable"? To put it into perspective, Arcane and Fire Mages simm'd 14% higher than the FOURTH best dps spec in Warlords.

5% is fine and is a commendable goal since balance is impossible in this game. While I would love Arcane to have more damage, it's not gamebreaking. If your raid is wiping because you were doing 10k less dps, when there are other classes that already do less than you, then you have issues that transcend DPS.

Those suggestions you are offering allude to you not knowing what you're talking about. Arcane Mages are currently mana neutral at a basic 3 charge rotation and you aren't even supposed to remain mana neutral considering burst phases last 13 seconds long. A better solution would by halving the effect of the Kilt legendary and making it baseline so that we can do a 4 charge rotation to at least make the spec feel better and more intuitive.

Arcane Mages need a 5% damage buff at most. Anything more than that would put them above Fire and that goes against their mission statement to keep the current best spec the best one in the short term to accommodate Artifact commitment.

[Deleted]

that goes against their mission statement to keep the current best spec the best one in the short term to accommodate Artifact commitment.

That "mission statement" needs to be vetoed, it's highly inacceptable. If you choose an artifact purely because the spec happens to be op today then that's on you, Arcanists shouldn't have to suffer due to that. There is zero justification for Fire or Frost to be equal to Arcane in single target and burst. They both already have their own niches to be God-King in.

[Lebanese Dude]

Saying Arcane is a braindead spec is odd, considering that it's the spec that demands the most attention out of all mage specs since failure to properly manage mana can lead to disastrous consequences.

Fire can be boiled down to a castsequence. The Combusion rotation is basically reliant on muscle memory.

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That "mission statement" needs to be vetoed, it's highly inacceptable. If you choose an artifact purely because the spec happens to be op today then that's on you, Arcanists shouldn't have to suffer due to that. There is zero justification for Fire or Frost to be equal to Arcane in single target and burst. They both already have their own niches to be God-King in.

I don't like it either but it is what it is and complaining about it won't change it when most people agree with it.

I'd settle for Arcane to be slightly worse off than Fire by a few percentage points, nothing less.

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Look at it this way: Fire is 10% better at killing one mob than arcane, right? The boss is that one mob. So that's a factor yes? Now, what happens when a single add is introduced? Arcane will not pull ahead. It won't have time for its superior cleave to even matter since it will, at best, get maybe two barrages off before the add is dead. I can see Arcane being pretty good at 3-4 targets but unless those targets are up nearly constantly then it won't pull ahead of Fire's effective damage over all. Fire does not have zero cleave either so it has something to do in these situations to make it effective. Basically if there's like... an add spawn once every minute and the adds last for maybe 20 seconds... it just won't make the difference up. Fire will outperform.

Fire seems like it would have higher burst potential with Combustion as well. Forever chaining a guaranteed crit fireball into a guaranteed crit Pyroblast seems outrageously powerful. I don't know the duration of both Combustion and Arcane power but I assume AP lasts longer? If that's the case then it's definitely better at bursting down targets with a larger pool of health but if you don't get the full benefit of AP on that one target, your toolkit is effectively worse than Fire's at this job since Fire also has the added benefit of purely doing additional damage.

Fire has ways to cast on the move mind you. Ice Floes allows you to cast Fireball while running and the spec also still has blink. I don't know the trade off between the two specs, however. Like... if casting on the move is more important for fire than it is for arcane and what the implications of the dps increase on that would be. All I know is that fire has very VERY powerful instant cast abilities if used correctly and can essentially do it's full rotation pretty easily with one of two ice floe'd fireballs and good useage of fireblasts and hot streaks.


Since I don't play mage I have yet to evaluate the entirety of each other's toolkits against each other, but I have done this for Frost and Unholy and I can say if the disparity between usefulness is anywhere like it is between the dk specs, arcane will not be taken seriously.

The issue here is that Fire is so reliant on Combustion for its damage that the best strategy is to bank most of your Phoenix Flames and Fire Blast charges for Combustion, using any spare charges during your rotation.

The argument for more instants doesn't apply. They HAVE the instants but they can't use them as they please otherwise they'd wreck their Combustion potential.

Fire can cast on the move with Ice Floes and Shimmer, but Arcane has those too. Fire can cast with Scorch, but those have less crit potential and do less damage.

Both Arcane and Fire have meh 2 target cleave, with Fire relying on ignite damage to do anything and Arcane relying on Nether Tempest, not Barrage. Arcane has better 3+ target cleave and AOE though, and those are what comprise most fights with far better burst for the AOE as Fire needs Combustion to do well, which it also needs for the ST.

Arcane Power lasts 30% longer (or more) with the artifact than Combustion, but that's typically irrelevant. I don't see what you're saying with regards to Combustion being more reliable. Fire has higher burst within a marginal window but ST mobs rarely die in less than 5 seconds. Maybe for priority targets, but Arcane already has an easier time switching.

Look the bottom line is I'm not disagreeing that Fire is slightly better overall. I'm just saying that it's not so far ahead as to justify forcing oneself to play it to be viable. Arcane is competitive with potential to even eclipse Fire, while Frost is the spec that is languishing and needs DPS boosts immediately.

[Deleted]

It's hardly any more random than most specs and a lot less random than you think I promise. Back in the day before Fireblast I'd agree with you but since then it's way more consistent. You have much more leeway over when you actually get a hot steak proc than simply spamming fireball and praying. There's also the guarantee that even if you're incredibly unlucky with a string of fireball non crits, you will get one eventually due to the 10% increased crit chance on fireball for every time fireball fails to crit that stacks and last until you get a crit and one is all you need to get hotstreak since you simply cast fireblast after one fireball hits and BOOM Pyroblast that monkey.

If you want I can always help you out with fire. It could be you're potentially playing the spec wrong? I feel like that's the only way it would really feel as random as you make it out to be.

Thanks! I didn't mean to insult the spec, just what I thought of it with my brief time fooling around with the specialisation.
So, some questions if you don't mind, if I get a heating up proc, do I stop casting my current spell so I can immediately Fire Blast or do I finish casting? Do I use Combustion on cooldown or at specific moments? Should I try and make use of Dragon's Breath or not? Is Meteor a viable talent, because the idea is pretty awesome

[Lebanese Dude]

Thanks! I didn't mean to insult the spec, just what I thought of it with my brief time fooling around with the specialisation.
So, some questions if you don't mind, if I get a heating up proc, do I stop casting my current spell so I can immediately Fire Blast or do I finish casting? Do I use Combustion on cooldown or at specific moments? Should I try and make use of Dragon's Breath or not? Is Meteor a viable talent, because the idea is pretty awesome

Fire Blast can be cast while casting and is off the GCD, so don't interrupt your spell cast. Cast Fire Blast for the Pyro proc, finish the Fireball cast, use Pyroblast, then continue normally.

Use Combustion on cooldown assuming it's the right thing to do (boss isn't going to die soon, etc...). Always try to time your ability usage so that you have max charges on Pheonix Flames and Fire Blast (and Flame On) during Combustion.

Dragon's Breath is good for some burst AOE, but until you get the legendary pants, it's not useful in your ST rotation.

Meteor is OK but not comparable to Cinderstorm and Kindling. Its major problem is that it splits damage. If you can manage to get it on one target, it's good for burst.

[Deleted]

If you play Arcane and get kicked from a dungeon, you'll know exactly why they did it.

That's even worse than picking a wrong spec. If you kick a player because he plays arcane without any other factor taken into consideration then you are a bad player. There are various players that could beat a bad fire mage on arcane.

[LordAmbrosia]

I wonder if Overpowered will be strong when we get set pieces. With Words of Power, Arcane 2p set bonus, and a sufficiently leveled artifact, the chance for Arcane Missiles goes from 15% to 28% (would arcane blast be 43% then, or 56%? seems super high either way). If you could get like 12 extra seconds on Arcane Power, that seems pretty good. How does the Rule of Threes work with this, would it give 4 seconds longer instead of 2? Do the extra missiles launched require a longer channel time?