Flat tax support, arguments for or against it?

[Theinquisition]

It's not just the pensions, isn't the whole package. It's extremely cushy.

And I don't have a problem with it, just point out to the military people, who tend to lean against government and government programs, that they're some of the biggest beneficiaries of government programs.

More people should get military-like benefits from the government, we'd have all around less need for welfare in general.

Once again, a consenual agreement between two parties.

If others want military style benefits, let them work 16 hour days and wreck their bodies like I did

[Deleted]

What "logic"? The fact that equality generally isn't equitable is a truism. It's like saying nobody should be allowed to have an ice cream unless EVERYONE gets an ice cream, no matter if those others want it or not. Yes, that's ridiculous, but it's ridiculous because the call for unthinking equality is itself ridiculous and unfair.

Well you're basing it on needs and abilities. As in someone who needs something more should get it and those who are capable of doing/giving more should do so.

That is a bit childish and unrealistic cause real people would so not be fine with this. In fact, even going towards this (socialism), would just increase stagnation, crime and corruption as people who are willing to or can get around these increased taxes will still prosper through more dishonest means. Just look at the real communist states around the world. The fatcats still live in their mansions while people are actually poor, not like in the West but working 12h a day for 1 dollar and live in shacks with families of 10.

[Endus]

Well theres this thing called ownership. Depends on who the owner of this burger is. If Fat Georgie has already paid for it, he should be able to eat it and enjoy every bite. Same goes for Hungry Harry or whatever hes name is.

See, this is why you don't grasp the concept of fairness. Equality isn't "fair", because the only way it CAN be "fair", is if everyone starts out on the same level. Which is patently false.

My point is that other peoples needs are their own responsibility, not of a stranger. If they can't fill them themselves, they could beg, ask for help or perhaps some kind of social system should be set in place that isn't based on stealing. Say a loan they can either pay back later or work if they can't (or join the army, sign up as guinea pigs for science.. doesnt matter).

We have those systems in place. You are the one trying to malign them as "stealing", despite them not being anything of the sort.

If you don't like paying the taxes you pay, you're free to leave the country. Until you do, you're not actually demonstrating that you have the gumption to act on your supposed beliefs.

[Deleted]

I clearly have a stronger grasp on taxes, citizenship, and most other things on this forum. If I don't know anything, I either research it or stay out of it. I don't go spouting off at the mouth thinking I know something about it, when you have clearly shown you don't know anything.

So far Ive only seen you drop these "brilliant" one liners, trying to bash me.. in fact, is Endus sleeping or are the rumors true? Where are those infractions?

[Endus]

Well you're basing it on needs and abilities. As in someone who needs something more should get it and those who are capable of doing/giving more should do so.

That is a bit childish and unrealistic cause real people would so not be fine with this.

This is just obviously untrue, since pretty much every developed country's systems, and many developing nations, are all based on exactly that principle, and the vast majority of the populations of those nations not only are fine with this, but actively support it.

In fact, even going towards this (socialism), would just increase stagnation, crime and corruption as people who are willing to or can get around these increased taxes will still prosper through more dishonest means.

Literally has not remotely happened. You may as well be claiming that socialism will awaken the Elder Goatagons to terrorize the planet with their fire-spewing cross-pupils.

[Deleted]

Literally has not remotely happened. You may as well be claiming that socialism will awaken the Elder Goatagons to terrorize the planet with their fire-spewing cross-pupils.

Pretty sure you are describing lady gaga.

[Theinquisition]

Not everyone has to have a physically straining career to contribute to their society. I guarantee you the people working in tech fields for the government contribute more to our nation than the guy getting paid to do PT and sit around at a military base in the country.



I don't think pointing out the lack of knowledge someone has on a given subject is bashing someone.

They also get well compensated, not seeing what your point is.

[Deleted]

See, this is why you don't grasp the concept of fairness. Equality isn't "fair", because the only way it CAN be "fair", is if everyone starts out on the same level. Which is patently false.

People aren't equal though, and while equal rights and opportunities are a good thing, equality of outcome is not and should never be allowed to happen.

We have those systems in place. You are the one trying to malign them as "stealing", despite them not being anything of the sort.

If you don't like paying the taxes you pay, you're free to leave the country. Until you do, you're not actually demonstrating that you have the gumption to act on your supposed beliefs.

Life is not a multiple choice test. There is no this or that. If I dont like these taxes, I can either.

1) Try to find loopholes to get out of paying them
2) Fire workers, move production abroad, invest in automation to cut costs
3) Use the welfare system in my favor. For example sign my property to my husband or someone I trust and leech the bejesus out of it.
4) Vote for the party that promises to lower taxes.

As well as many more option, Im sure.

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I don't think pointing out the lack of knowledge someone has on a given subject is bashing someone.

You clearly don't understand the basic concepts of government, economics or pretty much anything that is posted on this forum. Maybe, its time for you to go back to high school.

Well thats basically your run of the mill "ur stoopid" comment that doesnt add anything constructive. I think it qualifies as flaming. Ive seen infractions given out for less.

[Endus]

People aren't equal though, and while equal rights and opportunities are a good thing, equality of outcome is not and should never be allowed to happen.

And now you're blatantly moving goalposts. Is there a reason you're not responding to the actual point that was being made? If you agree that people aren't equal, then you've admitted that your proposed equality of treatment is deliberately unfair, which contradicts your prior claims.

Life is not a multiple choice test. There is no this or that. If I dont like these taxes, I can either.

1) Try to find loopholes to get out of paying them
2) Fire workers, move production abroad, invest in automation to cut costs
3) Use the welfare system in my favor. For example sign my property to my husband or someone I trust and leech the bejesus out of it.
4) Vote for the party that promises to lower taxes.

As well as many more option, Im sure.

#1 is still paying your taxes, and just taking advantage of the tax system as it's designed to be used. Unless you're proposing actually evading taxes, which is no different in principle than saying "I don't like the price on this TV, so I'm just gonna steal it".

#2 isn't you talking about your taxes. It's explicitly the option you're refusing to take.

#3 you're welcome to try, but welfare queens are so rare that the idea is basically a myth at this point.

#4 only works if you accept the duties of citizenship in the meantime. Which you're explicitly not doing.


Taxes aren't "theft". You've agreed to pay them, and by remaining a citizen, you're continuing to agree. If you actually believe they're illegitimate, you'd stand by that position and leave the country. Remaining and trying to get out of paying them just means you're exactly the kind of moocher that you're projecting that others might be.

You may as well complain that your cell provider is "stealing" your monthly service charges from you.

[Deleted]

This is just obviously untrue, since pretty much every developed country's systems, and many developing nations, are all based on exactly that principle, and the vast majority of the populations of those nations not only are fine with this, but actively support it.

You mean EU countries and Canada yes? They're on the verge of collapse actually. Well maybe not Canada, at least not yet. Either way, whether they are fine with it or not, its obvious that countries with low taxes and less restrictions on businesses prosper and when they get comfortable, become more socialist, they stagnate and fall off the map.

[Rollo]

we tried the " progressive " system it has not worked and our current tax code is beyond repair. in a 2 tiered flat system everyone pays their fair share still.

Bob earns 100K he is tier 1 10% thats 10K a year in taxes, Jill earns 1.2 mill thats tier 2 20% she pays 240K a year

Dan co is 750K a year, dan co is tier 1 10% thats 75K a year in taxes, lesley LLC is 2 mill a year, lesley LLC is tier 2 20% thats 400K a year in taxes

how is this worse than a progressive system?

So a person who makes $999,999.99 and a person who makes $1,125,000 end up at the same after tax amount of $900,000? Anyone caught in the middle between $1,000,000 and $1,125,000 ends up losing money. Make a penny below a million, pay ~$100k in taxes. Make that extra penny and you get hit with another $100k in taxes. That's horrible. If you're going to put tiers in the tax code, you have to tax the tiers separately.

Bob earns 100k he is tier 1 10% thats 10k a year in taxes, Jill earns 1.2 mill thats tier 2 20% she pays 140k a year

Dan co is 750K a year, dan co is tier 1 10% thats 75K a year in taxes, lesley LLC is 2 mill a year, lesley LLC is tier 2 20% thats 300k a year in taxes

[Cthulhu 2020]

Once again, a consenual agreement between two parties.

If others want military style benefits, let them work 16 hour days and wreck their bodies like I did

People already do this.

And get 7.25 with no benefits.

"Well get better skills and negotiate better deals for yourself!" is generally the lazy argument against this, which doesn't fix the problem that more and more jobs are becoming 7.25 with no benefits. And if you get skills and try to negotiate better wages, you don't get hired and the guy hires someone else willing to work for 7.25.

Meanwhile we have a class of people in the US who oppose and stop any and all efforts to create more government positions that pay well and have good packages. That having well paying government jobs at the cost of slightly higher taxes is socialism and therefor evil. That the people who go to occupy wall street because they lost their jobs are "lazy and unskilled".

Then they lost their jobs and it's the fault of the mexicans and the chinese and the liberals. And they want to vote for Trump to get their jobs back. Not realizing that the forces that lost them their jobs are the same forces that took the jobs from the OWS people.

[Endus]

You mean EU countries and Canada yes? They're on the verge of collapse actually. Well maybe not Canada, at least not yet.

Yeah, no, none of them are "on the verge of collapse", with the sole exception of maybe Greece.

And there are plenty of other examples outside of the EU and Canada. Norway, for instance.

Either way, whether they are fine with it or not, its obvious that countries with low taxes and less restrictions on businesses prosper and when they get comfortable, become more socialist, they stagnate and fall off the map.

Again, this literally has not and is not happening. You're talking about a delusional fantasy world, not reality. What next, complain that the engines of Mordor are an unstoppable industrial force that will crush the armies of Gondor? Because that's seriously the level of fantasy you're dealing with.

The USA is one of the strongest economies in the world, and has been increasingly socialist itself for the past 80 years or so, the very same period in which that economic strength has blossomed.

[Varaben]

I am against it because poor people have no money and rich people can afford to pay more.

As has probably already been pointed out, flat taxes end up being consumption taxes, so rich people do indeed pay more. If my rent costs $500 and the tax is 20%, I will pay much less than my neighbor whose rent is $5000. It ends up being very much a progressive tax, as you suggest is better.

[Deleted]

And now you're blatantly moving goalposts. Is there a reason you're not responding to the actual point that was being made? If you agree that people aren't equal, then you've admitted that your proposed equality of treatment is deliberately unfair, which contradicts your prior claims.



#1 is still paying your taxes, and just taking advantage of the tax system as it's designed to be used. Unless you're proposing actually evading taxes, which is no different in principle than saying "I don't like the price on this TV, so I'm just gonna steal it".

#2 isn't you talking about your taxes. It's explicitly the option you're refusing to take.

#3 you're welcome to try, but welfare queens are so rare that the idea is basically a myth at this point.

#4 only works if you accept the duties of citizenship in the meantime. Which you're explicitly not doing.


Taxes aren't "theft". You've agreed to pay them, and by remaining a citizen, you're continuing to agree. If you actually believe they're illegitimate, you'd stand by that position and leave the country. Remaining and trying to get out of paying them just means you're exactly the kind of moocher that you're projecting that others might be.

You may as well complain that your cell provider is "stealing" your monthly service charges from you.

As I said before.. Im a libertarian/anarchist so Im against authority in general and would prefer to keep it at the minimum just to prevent some people getting ideas and setting up their own government, fighting for power or just looting and pillaging to their black hearts desire.

So yes, I would personally happily use every loophole trick or legal move to pay less, maybe even if the legal fees would cost me more, just to prove a point. Kinda like those people who flex their rights to cops, refuse illegal searches and stuff like that. I really really hate and despise all forms of collectivism as they are the most authoritarian systems conceivable.

But why make it about me? Do you honestly think people actually want to pay taxes? Only those who either know they'll never be anything.. the freeloaders, leeches, junkies and lazies .. people after free stuff would ever vote for raising them. The mythical 1% are almost immune to it anyway so lower taxes would always be a more popular choice among voters.

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Norway, for instance.

Norway has lots of natural resources, oil and only 5 mil people(too lazy to look it up but should be close). Some cities in the US have a larger population than that.

[Rollo]

but if the middle class is no longer getting taxed 30% - 50% of their income they will spend more increasing demand.

I don't know what you consider middle class, but they are getting no where near taxed that amount. If you extend middle class to $200k a year in income (for a single person), that person would have paid ~$49.5k in taxes (just under 25%). That's not counting deductions or exemptions. Someone making $1m a year currently pays a max of 35% in federal tax.

[Endus]

As I said before.. Im a libertarian/anarchist so Im against authority in general and would prefer to keep it at the minimum just to prevent some people getting ideas and setting up their own government, fighting for power or just looting and pillaging to their black hearts desire.

So yes, I would personally happily use every loophole trick or legal move to pay less, maybe even if the legal fees would cost me more, just to prove a point. Kinda like those people who flex their rights to cops, refuse illegal searches and stuff like that. I really really hate and despise all forms of collectivism as they are the most authoritarian systems conceivable.

So apparently we can add "authoritarianism" to the list of terms you don't understand. The existence of a government with some sense of authority over those it governs is not "authoritarianism".

But why make it about me? Do you honestly think people actually want to pay taxes?

Most people, yes.

Only those who either know they'll never be anything.. the freeloaders, leeches, junkies and lazies .. people after free stuff would ever vote for raising them. The mythical 1% are almost immune to it anyway so lower taxes would always be a more popular choice among voters.

Yeah, now you're just projecting your own silliness.

It isn't even a mainstream viewpoint in basically any developed nation. At best, it's a tiny fringe minority. I have no idea where you got the impression that it had even a strong minority support, let alone being what the majority of people believe.

[Deleted]

Again, this literally has not and is not happening. You're talking about a delusional fantasy world, not reality. What next, complain that the engines of Mordor are an unstoppable industrial force that will crush the armies of Gondor? Because that's seriously the level of fantasy you're dealing with.

The USA is one of the strongest economies in the world, and has been increasingly socialist itself for the past 80 years or so, the very same period in which that economic strength has blossomed.

Oh really? Our national dept keeps climbing and and were doing far far worse now than in the 50s and 60s, Id say at the rate were becoming more socialist, were also circling the drain.

[Endus]

Oh really? Our national dept keeps climbing and and were doing far far worse now than in the 50s and 60s, Id say at the rate were becoming more socialist, were also circling the drain.

In what sense is the USA doing "worse"? Economic growth is stronger, per capita, when you control for inflation. By pretty much any measure, the USA is economically stronger in 2016 than it was in the '50s and '60s.

You don't get to just invent your own facts and ignore reality like that.

[Deleted]

Yeah, now you're just projecting your own silliness.

It isn't even a mainstream viewpoint in basically any developed nation. At best, it's a tiny fringe minority. I have no idea where you got the impression that it had even a strong minority support, let alone being what the majority of people believe.

Show me anyone (who isnt crazy) who would vote for someone who promises higher taxes. Newsflash.. people can give money away if they want without having to wait till theyre taxed as is.