Mark of the Illidari

[Enthralled]

So the mind controlled sex slaves - necessary sacrifice for the greater good then?

What mind controlled sex slaves? Are you talking about the ladies in the Black Temple? Hardly mind controlled and hardly slaves, that lot were prostitutes

[Abajaba]

What mind controlled sex slaves? Are you talking about the ladies in the Black Temple? Hardly mind controlled and hardly slaves, that lot were prostitutes

Fair point. I'm sure the Spellbound Attendants were the only ones to experience any sort of magical coercion in getting there. The rest just signed up at when the Illidari Scouts showed up with a pamphlet at their college campus.

[Enthralled]

Fair point. I'm sure the Spellbound Attendants were the only ones to experience any sort of magical coercion in getting there. The rest just signed up at when the Illidari Scouts showed up with a pamphlet at their college campus.

cour·te·san
ˈkôrdəzən,ˈkôrdəzan/
noun
a prostitute, especially one with wealthy or upper-class clients.

This is what most of them were. Some of them were, what, "mistresses" I think? The Illidan book states that this area was put in for the Illidari blood elves as a reward for their loyalty after Kael'thas jumped ship. For the greater good, I guess, but the book doesn't say that.

[Abajaba]

cour·te·san
ˈkôrdəzən,ˈkôrdəzan/
noun
a prostitute, especially one with wealthy or upper-class clients.

I'm not sure what you think this is doing here, but it's not precluding coercion. If you're young enough to be unaware, lots of prostitutes, even ones for upper class clients, find their line of work outside of their own free will.

Either way I wasn't meaning to be taken so seriously. There's mind controlled slaves at a sex party and I conflated things for a cheap joke about having a giant prostitute and demon filled orgy for the greater good. I'm moving on now. Sorry to disturb you.

[Enthralled]

I'm not sure what you think this is doing here, but it's not precluding coercion. If you're young enough to be unaware,

Thanks for the non-subtle jab there.

lots of prostitutes, even ones for upper class clients, find their line of work outside of their own free will.

Now you're attempting to move the goalposts, because you initially said "mind-controlled sex slaves". Shall we now worry of all the young ladies in the Den and wonder just how they each found their way there?

The sex trade during wartime is a real thing. Guys are going to go looking for an outlet for that and Blizzard totally went there with this part of BT. To be honest, it was a highly practical move on Illidan's part. Why risk your men going wandering gods know where when you can set aside a little slice of paradise for their pleasure?

Either way I wasn't meaning to be taken so seriously. There's mind controlled slaves at a sex party and I conflated things for a cheap joke about having a giant prostitute and demon filled orgy for the greater good. I'm moving on now. Sorry to disturb you.

LMAO, no, you didn't disturb me. I am simply trying to tell you that the Illidan book doesn't give any indication that those women are there under mind-controlled conditions or any other than voluntary. The mind-controlled male servants are there to keep their grubby hands off.

[Aucald]

Sexual topics are not permitted, change the subject or the thread will be closed.

[Deleted]

Well when the OP talks about apologizing for stopping Illidan, it should be noted that was a VERY recent retcon completely trying to justify Illidan's actions as anything other than self-serving.

So, yes.

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Accepting it and thinking its good are two different things. I've accepted it from the second I did those quests on the alpha. Anyhow, enough off topic. That wasn't my intention but the vodka made me do it.

Yeah, but I think in the end, it kinda fits. Most of the times we had problems with the Illidari Troups, it were Kael'thas Blood Elves, while Vashj also reigned as a tyrant. Illidans had a just cause, but he was obsessive and had a tunnel vision. He established a big Kingdom, but never cared to control it, so his Liteutnants could easily do whatever they wanted or betray them. In Shadowmoon Valley, as Alliance Player, we also shouldn't forget that the Alliance Forces of Draenor and the Ma'ghar were attacked by the Fel Orcs, a group that screamed Lok'tar Illidan, so naturally we think that the Illidari are our enemies, as Alliance Players we stand at the side of the veterans who sacrificed everything to protect Azeroth, Horde Players would never consider talkin with the Fel Orcs, especially not if they are a danger for the last uncorrupted Orcs in existence. So, everything took a bad start. The Nagas were not better and I think Kael'thas helped the Legion to provoke a war right from the start, most of the hostile actions from Illidans Forces came from blood elves. Naturally, everything lead us into a War with Illidan. Illidans problem is, he sucks as a Leader. He would be one of the greatest commanders against the burning Legion, but once he leads everything is screwed. He is too proud, too narcassistic, to aggressive and only sees his goal, nothing else.

[KrazyK923]

The guy seems blinded by Illidan hate. Illidan has never been a self serving character. He may take an opportunity to grow in power if it presents itself but he always had a greater good in mind.

Illidan has never been a self-serving character?

...what? lol.

That's been his main characteristic.

Joining the Legion in the WotA, he wanted the power of the Well of Eternity. Only after not getting what he wanted did he claim he was trying to be a double-agent. He's been brooding and butthurt about Tyrande not choosing him his ENTIRE existence. Creating the Second Well of Eternity at Hyjal was entirely self-serving. He wanted to keep the power of the Well around. He only agrees to help in Warcraft 3 because of Tyrande, not his people or Azeroth or anything else.

I love how some of y'all just ignore any negative characteristics of people you don't like. What happened to enjoying characters for what they are? I don't hate Illidan, although I hate the angle they're taking WITH him in Legion, but to honestly say that he's not a self-serving character is just...it's hilariously ignorant.

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That's not Sargeras's end goal. He's not planning on fighting the void lords.

He wants to set himself up as a god-emperor of all known universes with a fel-corrupted Azeroth at his side. Any new life that pops up will be fel, of course.

...no, he was so afraid of the Void Lords corrupting a world soul, that's why he wants to destroy Azeroth. Just like he did with that unnamed Titan he found whose planet was infested almost to the very core by the Dreadlords and the Old Gods. They changed his motivation in Chronicle with the introduction of the Void Lords.

[Enthralled]

...no, he was so afraid of the Void Lords corrupting a world soul, that's why he wants to destroy Azeroth.

Doesn't want to destroy her like he did that other world soul. Wants to fel-corrupt her and make her "his". This pretty definitely answers the question why he never sent his minions here to just ravage the place for good, like they have so many other worlds.

[KrazyK923]

Doesn't want to destroy her like he did that other world soul. Wants to fel-corrupt her and make her "his". This pretty definitely answers the question why he never sent his minions here to just ravage the place for good, like they have so many other worlds.

This is a GIGANTIC stretch based on the vague words of a description in one of the artifact tomes inside a Class Hall.

One that is directly contradicted by Chronicle, where he flatout states the only way to save the universe is to kill all the nascent Titans and everything else.

[Deleted]

Illidan has never been a self-serving character?

...what? lol.

That's been his main characteristic.

Joining the Legion in the WotA, he wanted the power of the Well of Eternity. Only after not getting what he wanted did he claim he was trying to be a double-agent. He's been brooding and butthurt about Tyrande not choosing him his ENTIRE existence. Creating the Second Well of Eternity at Hyjal was entirely self-serving. He wanted to keep the power of the Well around. He only agrees to help in Warcraft 3 because of Tyrande, not his people or Azeroth or anything else.

I love how some of y'all just ignore any negative characteristics of people you don't like. What happened to enjoying characters for what they are? I don't hate Illidan, although I hate the angle they're taking WITH him in Legion, but to honestly say that he's not a self-serving character is just...it's hilariously ignorant.

I wouldn't call him traditionally self-serving like for example Gul'Dan. He's a narcassist and he always was. He is kinda like...I don't know if anyone of you knows Tokyo Ghoul Re and Seidou Takizawa. Both of them have the motivation to fight for a greater good and protect others, but at the same time they have the selfish motivation to impress anyone arround, to be the most special, the strongest, the biggest Hero. So it is kinda self-serving, they want to be praised as heroes, that everyone else looks up to them. And in Illidans case, if he thinks of himself as mad or a betrayer or lost, then only because it confirms his uniqueness. Nobody can understand him because he is that special, he is the Betrayer because all the other people are to stupid or naive to get his point, he is corrupted and lost but he is soo special that he can endure it, he is the only one who will sacrifice everything and save all worlds. He would never consider himself wrong.

[Aucald]

This is a GIGANTIC stretch based on the vague words of a description in one of the artifact tomes inside a Class Hall.

One that is directly contradicted by Chronicle, where he flatout states the only way to save the universe is to kill all the nascent Titans and everything else.

I wouldn't call it a stretch, per se; but exactly how Sargeras means "but most of all: his" towards the Azeroth world-soul is kind of open to interpretation. He could mean just consuming it's energies, or it could have other connotations. I actually read it along the lines of Enthralled interpretations, but that doesn't make it fact.

[Enthralled]

This is a GIGANTIC stretch based on the vague words of a description in one of the artifact tomes inside a Class Hall.

One that is directly contradicted by Chronicle, where he flatout states the only way to save the universe is to kill all the nascent Titans and everything else.

Chronicle lays the foundations for the story. The rest of the game builds on it.

When he tells the Pantheon that the only way to save the universe is to kill everything, this was eons before he had encountered Azeroth. Your interpretation leaves no room for story progression, which is what happens here.

[KrazyK923]

When he tells the Pantheon that the only way to save the universe is to kill everything, this was eons before he had encountered Azeroth. Your interpretation leaves no room for story progression, which is what happens here.

"My interpretation?"

My interpretation is that we have no idea and there's been nothing but an exceptionally vague single passage so declaring it one way or another is stupid since it's not clear at all here.

But ok, sure.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

cour·te·san
ˈkôrdəzən,ˈkôrdəzan/
noun
a prostitute, especially one with wealthy or upper-class clients.

This is what most of them were. Some of them were, what, "mistresses" I think? The Illidan book states that this area was put in for the Illidari blood elves as a reward for their loyalty after Kael'thas jumped ship. For the greater good, I guess, but the book doesn't say that.

I'm not sure what you think this is doing here, but it's not precluding coercion. If you're young enough to be unaware, lots of prostitutes, even ones for upper class clients, find their line of work outside of their own free will.

Either way I wasn't meaning to be taken so seriously. There's mind controlled slaves at a sex party and I conflated things for a cheap joke about having a giant prostitute and demon filled orgy for the greater good. I'm moving on now. Sorry to disturb you.

My best guess is that the Blood Elves wanted courtesans and Illidan didn't care one way or the other. He was worried about 'more important things', as he saw them. Like I said before, Illidan has been a villain with an ends-justifies-means mentality. He's not your buddy, even if you're one of his elite DHs; he proved that by letting us kill each other in training.

Illidan looks at each of us as walking dead because he knows the Legion is coming and will keep coming no matter how many times we beat it back, because we aren't really killing any of them. Meanwhile they learn more about how to defeat us with every invasion. Every demon we've killed (with possible exception of mythic Archimonde) is still alive and will come for us again. So if the default path is "we're all dead", what difference does it make how many he sacrifices? All that matters is finding a way to stop the Legion so a few can be saved after all.

Illidan's most redeeming feature, imho, is that he's willing to sacrifice himself as well. So at least he's not a hypocrite.

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Yeah, but I think in the end, it kinda fits. Most of the times we had problems with the Illidari Troups, it were Kael'thas Blood Elves, while Vashj also reigned as a tyrant. Illidans had a just cause, but he was obsessive and had a tunnel vision. He established a big Kingdom, but never cared to control it, so his Liteutnants could easily do whatever they wanted or betray them. In Shadowmoon Valley, as Alliance Player, we also shouldn't forget that the Alliance Forces of Draenor and the Ma'ghar were attacked by the Fel Orcs, a group that screamed Lok'tar Illidan, so naturally we think that the Illidari are our enemies, as Alliance Players we stand at the side of the veterans who sacrificed everything to protect Azeroth, Horde Players would never consider talkin with the Fel Orcs, especially not if they are a danger for the last uncorrupted Orcs in existence. So, everything took a bad start. The Nagas were not better and I think Kael'thas helped the Legion to provoke a war right from the start, most of the hostile actions from Illidans Forces came from blood elves. Naturally, everything lead us into a War with Illidan. Illidans problem is, he sucks as a Leader. He would be one of the greatest commanders against the burning Legion, but once he leads everything is screwed. He is too proud, too narcassistic, to aggressive and only sees his goal, nothing else.

I think you sum it up nicely! Illidan is a great sorcerer, a magical and tactical genius, but he's no great leader of men. He's egotistical because he's always been better at figuring things out than those around him. He looks at the rest of us as naïve. He's also had enough traumatic experience (thousands of years in a small windowless cell, consuming Gul'dan's skull) to destroy most minds. That he can still function effectively at all is a tribute to his strength of will, but he would be poorly written if he remained well-socialized.

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I have gathered all my marks of the Illidari, did a search for Demon Hunters and mailed each 1. Now justice is done.

No, but serious now, should we also apologize to Sargeras for ruining his plans even if he wants to kill the void lords? No, because to our world, to our people, his intentions are still bad. Just like how Illidan's intentions for the denizens of Outland were bad, from draining the water to using their souls to fuel his portals etc. It doesn't matter that his end-goal was good because the end does not justify the means. If it did, you know what? Illidan would still be evil, for he'd be the one ruining Sargeras's plans, Sargeras whose super good end-goal is to end the void lords.

Perfect. Good analogy too, although Sargeras would kill all of us, while Illidan might have the only plan that saves some of us. My paladin (deontological: believes in right actions) would never support Illidan, while my DH (consequentialist: believes ends justifies means) thinks he's our only hope. Illidan is meant to be a controversial figure, and so far they've written him well. Let's hope they continue to do so.

[DemonHunter18]

Illidan joined the Legion in WotA because he wanted to be better than Malfruion. also, he got angry when he saw him with Tyrande. plus, he wanted to be hailed as a hero, especially because he had plan to betray the Legion in the end and close the portal. that was all in ONE BOOK. it doesn't matter if he is self - serving. he hates the Legion and that's it. keep in mind that WotA trilogy retconed the original WotA where he joined the Legion and just betrayed them, which is what WC3 was portraying. WotA trilogy came after WC3. they already retconed that. KrazyK923, no offense, you are going a bit too far. lets not mention all those time skips in the book where he could have done far worse things. oh and its from his and DH perspective where he is a good guy so there is that.

also, keep in mind that events in Outland are not retconed as you are making it out to be. in fact, he is far worse. he killed thousands of innocents.


Illidan, by no means is a pure good guy or even a good guy. he is selfish for sure but saying that they whitewash him is ridiculous. not to mention that Illidan had a major role in defeating the Legion twice.

[Magnagarde]

Accepting it and thinking its good are two different things.

Definitely.

I hope they don't give him an ultimate redemption story, but keep true to his character's traits. This should prove to be a problem in no time in character.

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oh and its from his and DH perspective where he is a good guy so there is that.

Which is exactly why he had to be imprisoned and then killed.

[DemonHunter18]

Which is exactly why he had to be imprisoned and then killed.

exactly. he killed thousands of innocents. we learned things from Illidan's perspective in which he thinks he is doing the right thing. he still did all those terrible things.

I don't know why is Necroxis saying things like whitewash. we just got Illidan's perspective. he is still a bad guy. WC3 version of WotA was also retconed by WotA trilogy. I don't know why he is bringing that WC3 RoC and WC3 TFT events.

[Enthralled]

I don't know why is Necroxis saying things like whitewash. we just got Illidan's perspective. he is still a bad guy. WC3 version of WotA was also retconed by WotA trilogy. I don't know why he is bringing that WC3 RoC and WC3 TFT events.

Yeah, people keep bringing this up as if it's the Bible and they're the Pat Robertsons of Illidan lore. It's getting funny, frankly. I do think that it's the general idea that a character that once was a cut-and-dried, this-dude-is-crazy-and-evil raid boss may have a legitimate side to the story, and may have a legitimate path to redemption. The thing with Illidan is that his character was so strong as an anti-hero counterpart to Malfurion in Warcraft 3, that a lot of people never stopped wanting that, and rejected raid boss Illidan. Really, with good reason, IMO.

[Deleted]

Perfect. Good analogy too, although Sargeras would kill all of us, while Illidan might have the only plan that saves some of us. My paladin (deontological: believes in right actions) would never support Illidan, while my DH (consequentialist: believes ends justifies means) thinks he's our only hope. Illidan is meant to be a controversial figure, and so far they've written him well. Let's hope they continue to do so.

I will agree here, they've written this part of Illidan good, it creates some interesting topics of conversation.