Simulationcraft results for Legion Expansion (7.0)

[Aethys256]

Yes, just some "minor" things to change both in the module (the legendary mantle probably need a change for subterfuge) and in the APL (for all 3 specs).
Otherwise, besides the fact that default profiles don't have "optimized" gear, it should be fine with your own char.

[Sephiroso]

Also, another question for you Aethys, you showed TB/3+ was better than TB/2+ regardless if you had bracers or not, does that remain true in 7.1.5? I don't know if the increased cost to reroll due to Fatebringer nerf or other changes may have tipped the scales in the other direction or not.

[GT4]

There's currently a very significant bug when it comes to Outlaw multi-target in the class module: Blade Flurry doesn't trigger off of Run Through at all - you can easily confirm this using the results (highest blade flurry hit is much lower than 30% of highest run through for sustained AoE/cleave) as well as the log (no blade_flurry action when run_through is executed).

Looking at the module, the issue appears to be the check for the weapon attribute in the trigger_blade_flurry function which isn't set in run_through_t.

Edit: Fixed this locally and three target DPS is up from ~625k to ~711k for the default mythic profile, putting outlaw at comparable DPS to assa/sub.

[Zzaj]

@Aethys256, my post is not here to sound mean or angry at you Aethys/skasch. I'm saying things that, according to my humble opinion, could be improved.

Is there any news regarding Outlaw and Assassination in 7.1.5? On the Rogue discord, you and skasch often talk about Sub and improve on its model while the other 2 specs seem to be left out. You two love Sub (which is great, everyone has a favourite spec) but as a result : there isn't much information going on about Otl/Asn. Guides/spreadsheets haven't been updated for a while now though you take the time to do researches on how to gain a single digit in Sub DPS. It's great to love a spec but it's a shame if it is at the cost of dropping the others, more so when they're played by the majority of the community. For instance :

- Any news about Outlaw talents? T15 shouldn't have changed but what about T90 and 100?
- Anything new regarding DP/Anticipation in all 3 specs?
- Master Poisoner > Elaborate Planning? or Hemo?
- What about the T19? How do they work? From what I've seen the 4P works in synergy with the 2P while Hemo isn't counted as a bleed in the equation. Also, should you be pooling to have 100% uptime on the Mut bleeding?
- How good/bad are the new legendaries?
- Are the Sims with Nighthold trinkets updated? Procs were maybe changed during PTR lifecycle.

Maybe some of those questions were answered while chatting on discord and it's great if it's case. Maybe some will need to be answered or checked again when the patch is live. Nevertheless, I'm a bit skeptical about the whole discussion thing since the talkative people about the most used spec (to take an example) aren't even theorycrafters. I don't have anything against those people of course and I would even add that I'm glad they're reading and answering questions. Once again, it's simply a shame that there's little support coming from you outside of Sub talks.

You do know this isn't his fucking job right?

[GT4]

You do know this isn't his fucking job right?

The guy complaining could sim all of that himself.... instead he rants about how another player doesn't do it for him.

[Euphrum]

Aethys any idea if Outlaw wrist changes mean that you should never consume the buff with pistol shot, only with BB? I would assume so but I'm not 100% certain.

[Sinbad101]

Alright, because I don't know how to read your graph because my IQ is around 75, can you tell me....

IS Outlaw good for anything?

I really only give a shit about Mythic+ and i don't care for raiding. (Job, college, GF, hobbies, I just can't ATM.)

[Aethys256]

Yes don't worry, all 3 specs are "mostly" fine.
Only cutting edge raiders are worried in fact, because of their raid leader and warcraft logs.

[GT4]

Alright, because I don't know how to read your graph because my IQ is around 75, can you tell me....

IS Outlaw good for anything?

I really only give a shit about Mythic+ and i don't care for raiding. (Job, college, GF, hobbies, I just can't ATM.)

The multi-target simulations would look a lot better for Outlaw if Blade Flurry was fixed to be properly simulated.

[Deleted]

Yes don't worry, all 3 specs are "mostly" fine.
Only cutting edge raiders are worried in fact, because of their raid leader and warcraft logs.

Personnal experience, but it's really hard for me those days to explain to a raid leader that in Sub, switching on adds (P1 and P2 Odyn for example) i'll have a total inferior DPS compared to my one target agonising poison mate.......

Therefore, can you explain the "because of their raid leader and Warcraft logs"? :=)

[Todesbote]

Seems like according to simcraft haste is way ahead of mastery now for Subtlety (Haste 0.78 - Mastery 0.68 - Vers - 0.67 - Crit 0.61). Can anyone confirm this?

[Firatha]

Personnal experience, but it's really hard for me those days to explain to a raid leader that in Sub, switching on adds (P1 and P2 Odyn for example) i'll have a total inferior DPS compared to my one target agonising poison mate.......

Therefore, can you explain the "because of their raid leader and Warcraft logs"? :=)

Its not that hard just tell them your dps will be halfassed because they don't know how to utilize your spec.

[Aethys256]

The multi-target simulations would look a lot better for Outlaw if Blade Flurry was fixed to be properly simulated.

Fixed since this morning.
I told it so many times, the best way to get something fixed "quickly" is to open an issue.
I have a lot of projects going on, even if I do "yes ok", most of the time I forgot it because someone else came 5mins later.

Someone (you ?) opened the issue this morning, it was fixed some minutes later.

Personnal experience, but it's really hard for me those days to explain to a raid leader that in Sub, switching on adds (P1 and P2 Odyn for example) i'll have a total inferior DPS compared to my one target agonising poison mate.......


Therefore, can you explain the "because of their raid leader and Warcraft logs"? :=)

Wait what ? Subtlety is better than AP Sin for fast switch. Did I read wrong ?

Because some RL thinks only Assa is viable.

Seems like according to simcraft haste is way ahead of mastery now for Subtlety (Haste 0.78 - Mastery 0.68 - Vers - 0.67 - Crit 0.61). Can anyone confirm this?

This is not fixed, depend on your ratings. Do a plot and you'll see. It's a normal behavior if you have 0 haste.

Its not that hard just tell them your dps will be halfassed because they don't know how to utilize your spec.

I think it's not that easy.

[Deleted]

I explained badly, due to poor english :/
Raid leader (and few players) where asking themselves why my AP mate was really ahead of me (sub) in terms of DPS. None of them is actually looking at anything but pure DPS.... the only thing that counts (and not add damage's taken or something like that... )... :/

And it's hard for me to explain them :'(

[elfporn]

I explained badly, due to poor english :/
Raid leader (and few players) where asking themselves why my AP mate was really ahead of me (sub) in terms of DPS. None of them is actually looking at anything but pure DPS.... the only thing that counts (and not add damage's taken or something like that... )... :/

And it's hard for me to explain them :'(

show them damage taken by target(enemy). My RL does it when he wants us to compete for spots - he will pull up a filter that includes just priority targets on warcraftlogs and swap us if we aren't on priority targets. Was great for ilgynoth and odyn

[Deleted]

Is there an updated list now? Taking into hotfixes etc

[Puffah]

OP was updated today

[shaunika123]

is there an issue with how the sub boots are simmed? what boss hitbox is in the simulation? cos it sims that i do ~6 energy per proc, but when im hitting a dummy from max range it comes out to 4,5, which is another dilemma, how can it be 4,5? it cant give half energy can it? can it be random if you're inbetween the benchmarks? or how does it work?

edit
so i tested it, without moving sometimes i get 4 energy and sometimes 5
i thought it was benchmarked, but apparently it breaks down the energy into fractions if you're in between 3 yard distances and tries to average it out

or am i wrong?

but still 6per cast seems excessive, that would mean my target is 9 yards away

[Aethys256]

is there an issue with how the sub boots are simmed? what boss hitbox is in the simulation? cos it sims that i do ~6 energy per proc, but when im hitting a dummy from max range it comes out to 4,5, which is another dilemma, how can it be 4,5? it cant give half energy can it? can it be random if you're inbetween the benchmarks? or how does it work?

edit
so i tested it, without moving sometimes i get 4 energy and sometimes 5
i thought it was benchmarked, but apparently it breaks down the energy into fractions if you're in between 3 yard distances and tries to average it out

or am i wrong?

but still 6per cast seems excessive, that would mean my target is 9 yards away

I was able to get 6 from every bosses in EN/ToV.
Sometimes 5 on tiny one like Cenarius, but if your placement is good (I use RangeDisplay to help me with the range) you should be able to get it.

I'll see how it goes this week in NH, if 5 or 6, but my wish would be that Blizzard fix the bug and revert it to 5 baseline. Guess I'm dreaming they'll solve it someday.

[GT4]

is there an issue with how the sub boots are simmed? what boss hitbox is in the simulation? cos it sims that i do ~6 energy per proc, but when im hitting a dummy from max range it comes out to 4,5, which is another dilemma, how can it be 4,5? it cant give half energy can it? can it be random if you're inbetween the benchmarks? or how does it work?

edit
so i tested it, without moving sometimes i get 4 energy and sometimes 5
i thought it was benchmarked, but apparently it breaks down the energy into fractions if you're in between 3 yard distances and tries to average it out

or am i wrong?

but still 6per cast seems excessive, that would mean my target is 9 yards away

The boots use your distance to the center of the hitbox whereas your attack range uses the distance to the edge of the hitbox. Basically all bosses are large enough that there's a significant discrepancy between both.