Internet and Reality, The Change in Social Dynamics and Incompatiblities to Address

[GennGreymane]

Alright, so this is going to simply be my understanding of current changing culture as a total layman in any fields of study that would even remotely touch these topics.

What are you talkin about now Genn? Are you just losing your mind again? Did you already lose your mind? The answer is yes to the latter, but that is not important right now.
Genn.... did you drink with Jayburner again? I have no comment to this.

What I want to talk about is how the internet is changing reality in terms of social dynamics that we experience everyday.

Before the internet, when people spoke to one another, it was generally face to face interactions. Obviously letters to be delivered have been with us for centuries, and the phone has been with us for over 100 years now.

When people spoke face to face, people would speak in a manner they generally wouldn't if it was a total stranger.
"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth." - Oscar Wilde

This led to complex social attitudes about social interaction, from dress (wearing a suit to certain events), how to address someone (Mr. Mrs. Ms. Sir, Kiddo, Prick, You total bitch lol), and how to speak. (Formally, informally, in quick bites of information, slowly, repetitively, etc). You will be one way with strangers, but a totally different way around friends and family.

This is generally how societies throughout history governed.... until just a few decades ago. The change was the computer as we know it, and later the internet.

The internet is not a place of face to face transactions. The internet as we know is basically anonymous. In real life I am a simple individual who is called by his name, but on the internet I am referred to as various other names. To many on the internet I am someone who is just a name, with some text next it. Much like what you are reading now.

I am sure all of you know what I am talking about. We are all free to openly speak without the rigid social constructions of regular society on forums like this, sites like 4chan, sites like reddit, and other similar places.

Many of us are used to these rules... or rather, lack of rules. We heard all the insults that come with it, heard all those people claim how jacked they are in RL, and everything in between when talking online. But, what is the issue Genn? What are you blabbing about?

The issue is social media. Social media, Twitter, FB, Linkedin, and more, are internet entities, with the format we are all used to, but with real life rules of social conduct forced upon them.

Sure, before when you would say things like "fuck white people", "fuck niggers", "Goddam goat fuckers", "here is what I really think we should do....", "Here is who I support", online, you were behind a vale of anonymity. But people are naturally bringing this mentality to social media, a place of face to face interactions, where people can see you. If they can see you, they can think more highly of what you say, they can be indifferent, or they can think of you as lesser. Social media is also huge, thousands of people can see what you say, and be inspired by, or repulsed by you. You will be under scrutiny, and now if you even walk near a person in regular life, they will remember what you said.

I think thats this is at the heart of some social unrest we have now. We have two conflicting rule sets governing society. Not legal rules, but social rules, rules not enforced necessarily by law, but instead by social stigma.

[Kokolums]

I don't feel there's a lot of rules in social media but then again I don't really put a lot of weight into things people say in social media either, so its not a big deal.

[GennGreymane]

I don't feel there's a lot of rules in social media but then again I don't really put a lot of weight into things people say in social media either, so its not a big deal.

Its not social media itself that has the rules, but its the regular social norms we are used to.

[unbound]

Completely disagree with you Genn.

Just go to a contentious school board or city council / county board of supervisors meeting, and you'll see the same behaviors with no concerns about social conduct. I've seen citizens stand up and threaten them, threaten other people, and degrade people who are sitting only a few feet away.

The only thing social media did was to give those loud, obnoxious social misfits the capability to reach a much larger audience. They were already there and spouting their nonsense. And they love to talk and talk.

When it was local to your community, or job, or school, you only saw a handful, and you dismissed them (appropriately) as idiots. You thought, inaccurately, that it was just those handful and, the grass always greener on the other side, not something other areas had to deal with.

With social media, the numbers haven't changed, and the people's attitude hasn't changed. You just get the unfortunate circumstance of all the village idiots converging. When we try to apply our face-to-face knowledge of what is immediately around us, we erroneously conclude that people must change in their social media interactions instead of understanding that the same principles are at work. 5% or so are actually intelligent and try to educate people; 15% or so are idiots who don't understand that they are stupid, but will spout their nonsense for all to hear because they think they are smart; and 80% are silently watching.

When you go to a meeting of 100 people, you only see a dozen or so idiots saying stupid things. You only see a half-dozen or so people that are well-informed and provide meaningful input. And, if you look around, you see that the vast majority of people are sitting in their chairs just taking it all in. The problem is, most people don't remember the silent majority...they remember the loudmouths and the few good speeches.

On boards like these, you have a few thousand people. That means at least a couple of hundred idiots who think they are smart and go on and on. Maybe a hundred who really are smart and speak up. And you are left with a couple thousand who just browse the boards saying nothing, or add something small here and there.

At the end of the day, I'm not really any different if you meet me face-to-face. If you approach me with a legitimate question, I will give you a solid answer or raise some interesting points. If you approach me with partisan nonsense (right or left) in my face treating me like an idiot or being disrespectful, I will give you the same two-barrels of rebuttal I do on these boards. Everyone that I know on-line and in real life are also the same. They don't act any differently in one environment vs the other.

[Kathandira]

My rule of speech is simple. If I feel strangely about what I want to say, I should really think about what I wanted to say.

If I have that sinking feeling that there are social repercussions regarding what i'm going to say, I have to stop and think, "Is this right? Does this really represent me? Am I just speaking without thinking first?"

The above I think is what you were saying about the face to face interactions. But even here, where no one knows who I really am, I still try to behave this way. I greatly dislike the anonymity of the internet. It might be considered honesty since people don't have the social repercussions, but I believe it can also be considered a way for people to spout any non-sense they please just cause they can due to the lack of social repercussions.

A catch 22 really.

[May90]

I don't think anonymity has brought any real difference here: anonymous or not, there are plenty of jerks in real life as well. What I think makes the Internet different is its detachment from reality. There is no real reference, people are cooked in the virtual pot with no contact with real world. Not even talking about "basement dwellers", just normal people that have normal lives, but, when on the Internet, they get into a virtual medium and see the world the way the Internet represents it.

Like, "goat fuckers", as you mentioned - you never, never, ever are going to hear this kind of opinion in real life. In real life, people understand: okay, here is a Muslims, okay, I can see that he is as much a human as me, so what's the big deal? But that very person that might have a Muslim as a best friend in real life, later gets home, turns off their computer, goes to MMO Champ - and posts about "goat fuckers" here. It is almost like a dual personality disorder. People confuse virtual medium reality and actual reality.

[Independent voter]

Those black guys who stalked and killed the cops? Both of them were influenced by social media, they probably wouldn't have done it 20 years ago cause they wouldn't have read their Facebook.

Also most of the terrorists who've struck Western targets in the last few years were radicalized by ISIS messages posted to social media.

A really small group can have a really loud voice on social media, that's good if the small group has something useful to say, bad if the small group has violent intentions.

[Kokolums]

Completely disagree with you Genn.

Just go to a contentious school board or city council / county board of supervisors meeting, and you'll see the same behaviors with no concerns about social conduct. I've seen citizens stand up and threaten them, threaten other people, and degrade people who are sitting only a few feet away.

The only thing social media did was to give those loud, obnoxious social misfits the capability to reach a much larger audience. They were already there and spouting their nonsense. And they love to talk and talk.

When it was local to your community, or job, or school, you only saw a handful, and you dismissed them (appropriately) as idiots. You thought, inaccurately, that it was just those handful and, the grass always greener on the other side, not something other areas had to deal with.

With social media, the numbers haven't changed, and the people's attitude hasn't changed. You just get the unfortunate circumstance of all the village idiots converging. When we try to apply our face-to-face knowledge of what is immediately around us, we erroneously conclude that people must change in their social media interactions instead of understanding that the same principles are at work. 5% or so are actually intelligent and try to educate people; 15% or so are idiots who don't understand that they are stupid, but will spout their nonsense for all to hear because they think they are smart; and 80% are silently watching.

When you go to a meeting of 100 people, you only see a dozen or so idiots saying stupid things. You only see a half-dozen or so people that are well-informed and provide meaningful input. And, if you look around, you see that the vast majority of people are sitting in their chairs just taking it all in. The problem is, most people don't remember the silent majority...they remember the loudmouths and the few good speeches.

On boards like these, you have a few thousand people. That means at least a couple of hundred idiots who think they are smart and go on and on. Maybe a hundred who really are smart and speak up. And you are left with a couple thousand who just browse the boards saying nothing, or add something small here and there.

At the end of the day, I'm not really any different if you meet me face-to-face. If you approach me with a legitimate question, I will give you a solid answer or raise some interesting points. If you approach me with partisan nonsense (right or left) in my face treating me like an idiot or being disrespectful, I will give you the same two-barrels of rebuttal I do on these boards. Everyone that I know on-line and in real life are also the same. They don't act any differently in one environment vs the other.

This isn't my experience on the internet at ALL.

What I see is a bunch of people who have poor reading comprehension skills that only half read someone's post and then go off on a tirade. And I see it from ALL corners. Even very very well-informed people do it. Because being well-informed and having strong reading comprehension skills actually do NOT always go hand in hand. Then on top of it you have people using logical fallacies and rhetorical devices to ruin conversation.

In the end, most internet forums develop a social hierarchy where the best salesmen sit at the top. How correct their views and opinions are do not matter at all compared to their ability to sell what they believe. Once you get a circle of people with high social status, they then self police the system to weed out people who are poor at selling their beliefs.

Eventually it becomes not about being right or wrong but how good of a salesman you are.

Real life goes that way as well. That's why you have seemingly endless amounts of brilliant people in high level positions and well thought out plans and nothing ever gets fixed. Because they aren't brilliant. Their ideas aren't well thought out. They were all just great salespeople.

[Kathandira]

I don't think anonymity has brought any real difference here: anonymous or not, there are plenty of jerks in real life as well. What I think makes the Internet different is its detachment from reality. There is no real reference, people are cooked in the virtual pot with no contact with real world. Not even talking about "basement dwellers", just normal people that have normal lives, but, when on the Internet, they get into a virtual medium and see the world the way the Internet represents it.

Like, "goat fuckers", as you mentioned - you never, never, ever are going to hear this kind of opinion in real life. In real life, people understand: okay, here is a Muslims, okay, I can see that he is as much a human as me, so what's the big deal? But that very person that might have a Muslim as a best friend in real life, later gets home, turns off their computer, goes to MMO Champ - and posts about "goat fuckers" here. It is almost like a dual personality disorder. People confuse virtual medium reality and actual reality.

I might be misunderstanding. I feel like you said that anonymity isn't really in play, but then you close with a situation where it is in play. Could you clarify that for me?

"I don't think anonymity has brought any real difference here: anonymous or not, there are plenty of jerks in real life as well."

"But that very person that might have a Muslim as a best friend in real life, later gets home, turns off their computer, goes to MMO Champ - and posts about "goat fuckers" here. It is almost like a dual personality disorder. People confuse virtual medium reality and actual reality."

- - - Updated - - -

This isn't my experience on the internet at ALL.

What I see is a bunch of people who have poor reading comprehension skills that only half read someone's post and then go off on a tirade. And I see it from ALL corners. Even very very well-informed people do it. Because being well-informed and having strong reading comprehension skills actually do NOT always go hand in hand. Then on top of it you have people using logical fallacies and rhetorical devices to ruin conversation.

In the end, most internet forums develop a social hierarchy where the best salesmen sit at the top. How correct their views and opinions are do not matter at all compared to their ability to sell what they believe. Once you get a circle of people with high social status, they then self police the system to weed out people who are poor at selling their beliefs.

Eventually it becomes not about being right or wrong but how good of a salesman you are.

Real life goes that way as well. That's why you have seemingly endless amounts of brilliant people in high level positions and well thought out plans and nothing ever gets fixed. Because they aren't brilliant. Their ideas aren't well thought out. They were all just great salespeople.

Sounds like this years Presidential Election. We chose the two who could sell us lies better than the others.

[May90]

I might be misunderstanding. I feel like you said that anonymity isn't really in play, but then you close with a situation where it is in play. Could you clarify that for me?

"I don't think anonymity has brought any real difference here: anonymous or not, there are plenty of jerks in real life as well."

"But that very person that might have a Muslim as a best friend in real life, later gets home, turns off their computer, goes to MMO Champ - and posts about "goat fuckers" here. It is almost like a dual personality disorder. People confuse virtual medium reality and actual reality."

My point is, the person doesn't say this online because they are anonymous here. They say this because their perception of the world when online is different from that when in real life. Much like a person with pink-tinted glasses sees everything differently than the person without any glasses - except, in this case, they confuse the tinted picture with reality.

[Kathandira]

My point is, the person doesn't say this online because they are anonymous here. They say this because their perception of the world when online is different from that when in real life. Much like a person with pink-tinted glasses sees everything differently than the person without any glasses - except, in this case, they confuse the tinted picture with reality.

hm. Interesting thought. I'll have to reflect on that to see if I do the same, without even knowing it.

[Kapadons]

Anonymity is the reason I don't have a Facebook or Twitter or snap chat. Shit I say online is shit I would never really say. Or only say in the company of my closest friends,whom I know can take a joke(be it racist or bigoted).

Most of the time I'll say shit here just to piss off the little regressive kiddies who feel every single issue is their hill to die on. Most of the time, they are so detached from reality, the only explanation could be they are doing the exact same thing

[May90]

hm. Interesting thought. I'll have to reflect on that to see if I do the same, without even knowing it.

I definitely do. I am much more passionate about some topics online than I am in real life, and sometimes the passion gets the better of me and I go too far in my claims.

[Nynax]

Why do you guys have time for these long post threads! everyone should be playing Legion!

[Kathandira]

I definitely do. I am much more passionate about some topics online than I am in real life, and sometimes the passion gets the better of me and I go too far in my claims.

Agreed, I do that myself as well. I think the majority of us do. But then again, I do that in face to face interactions as well. I have been known to argue myself into a corner, and feebly try to fight my way out of it on too many occasions. Fortunately, I'm aware of this fault of mine, and have been trying very hard to curb it.

- - - Updated - - -

Why do you guys have time for these long post threads! everyone should be playing Legion!

If I had a worthy PC, I would be. But my work laptop is not suitable.

[GennGreymane]

Why do you guys have time for these long post threads! everyone should be playing Legion!

im not playin ATM.

[Damajin]

This has been going on since 1995 when AOL chat rooms and bulletin boards were the thing, when the closest thing to social media came a few years later in Geocities free sites with ICQ/IRC interface coded into a page so kids could go nuts.

All the internet has done is taken the wallflowers of the world who wouldn't dare say shit and gave them enough wiggle room to say shit without much if any repercussions. The shittalkers have been talking shit long before the internet and if we're ever hit with a global EMP they'll still be talking shit long after the internet is gone. Besides giving a means of venting to the kids always holding shit in it has also served as a magnifier and exponential feeder of the bs in whatever form it takes. The internet takes the concept of emotions being addictive and multiplicative and combined with ease of use is just a recipe for a mudslide of epic proportions.

[Kokolums]

Agreed, I do that myself as well. I think the majority of us do. But then again, I do that in face to face interactions as well. I have been known to argue myself into a corner, and feebly try to fight my way out of it on too many occasions. Fortunately, I'm aware of this fault of mine, and have been trying very hard to curb it.

Debate is a terrible way to make decisions anyway. If you set out to try to solve all your problems by debating them, you will NOT reach the correct solutions. You will just wind up following the advice of the best salesman. A good salesman can sell ice to eskimos by having powerful debating skills. That's doesn't mean its a good idea to debate it and follow the winner of the debate.

The best way to make decisions is trial-and-error. That means trying ideas that go against the grain, that go against conventional wisdom, that have weak arguments, that you may not even agree with.

So don't fret over having a penchant to argue yourself into a corner. Many of the best ideas come from people who can't debate very well, but just went out and tried their ideas.

[panimer]

Interesting stuff!! I'll have to read every page.

[Kathandira]

Debate is a terrible way to make decisions anyway. If you set out to try to solve all your problems by debating them, you will NOT reach the correct solutions. You will just wind up following the advice of the best salesman. A good salesman can sell ice to eskimos by having powerful debating skills. That's doesn't mean its a good idea to debate it and follow the winner of the debate.

The best way to make decisions is trial-and-error. That means trying ideas that go against the grain, that go against conventional wisdom, that have weak arguments, that you may not even agree with.

So don't fret over having a penchant to argue yourself into a corner. Many of the best ideas come from people who can't debate very well, but just went out and tried their ideas.

That is oddly reassuring, lol. Thank you for that.