I just can't get behind fel rushing on rotation :(

[Deleted]

Btw you know that a class that has all of its mobility abilities on cd is not mobile at all right? As it is, on a raid environment we will be worse than DKs on the mobility department.

And don't start the same reroll mantra, i don't hate the playstyle, i actually love it but I don't love running away from dangers because everything is on cd.

My 2cc? Give us another mobile ability with no dmg at all. OR nerf Momentum (or stop VR from giving the buff and just keep FR). I'm actually fine with FRing to do dps, but VR fits more as an escape button than a dps increase and its pretty akward to use on some terrains.

[ehxy]

I don't mind the fel rush mobility combo but let's face it we all know there will be tight spots and HAVE been tight spots where you fight on ledges where your optimal execution is hampered due to constraints. I think it needs to be revisited and they should allow players to cancel out of the animation to allow for skilled execution of the spec to perform the way it should.

[Rocketsauce]

So... You played DH during alpha/beta, did not enjoy the playstyle and still you are playing a DH? Damn, the "me wanna be illidan but me don't like the gameplay" is strong within this one.

Fel Rush wasn't always top dog in alpha and beta. I enjoy playing the class when fel rush is an accessory, not a mainstay.

[FobManX]

I tried DB/CB/Nemesis build on a dummy yesterday and....good lord is it boring. I wanted to shoot myself. There is no way in hell I can play a spec that passive.

[Schizoide]

A harder rotation should net more dps. (...) In my opinion they should both be 5%.

Yep, 5% would be fine. 20% is not.

[Bullettime]

So... You played DH during alpha/beta, did not enjoy the playstyle and still you are playing a DH? Damn, the "me wanna be illidan but me don't like the gameplay" is strong within this one.

To be fair, there was also a lot more talent variety on the beta. Blizzard experimented with a few knobs and overshot the mark nerfing things like Eye Beam but didn't go back for another tuning pass. We'll be getting another one before raids, or after the first week of raids, definitely, due to the amount of talent and class imbalances that exist across the board.

[Kainslife]

Or, like other classes, you should be able to opt out to an extent at a small damage loss.

Remind me, which Fury Warrior build lets you opt out of Rampage and which Fire Mage build lets you opt out of Pyroblast?

I don't think the chances are slim at all. In fact I think it's one of the most obvious changes/adjustments that needs to be made. I'd be happy enough if I didn't have to use it on single target, but it remained good as soon as you're fighting 2+ targets.

You do realize that the reason the momentum build is miles ahead of everything else is because that's the playstyle Blizzard wants DH's to use, correct? They intentionally overtuned that build to provide a tip to players who hate it that the class isn't for them if they don't like it.

Yep, 5% would be fine. 20% is not.

5% is a small enough window that PUGs will start trying to dictate whether or not I'm allowed to use specific builds due to fear of the terrible DHs who pull everything zipping around blindly. The DPS gain needs to coverage both the risk of rushing into something bad (adds, traps, whatever) AND the community bias toward bad players of that class. At 20% difference, no PUG in their right mind is going to suggest people play something else.

[kaelleria]

Remind me, which Fury Warrior build lets you opt out of Rampage and which Fire Mage build lets you opt out of Pyroblast?



You do realize that the reason the momentum build is miles ahead of everything else is because that's the playstyle Blizzard wants DH's to use, correct? They intentionally overtuned that build to provide a tip to players who hate it that the class isn't for them if they don't like it.



5% is a small enough window that PUGs will start trying to dictate whether or not I'm allowed to use specific builds due to fear of the terrible DHs who pull everything zipping around blindly. The DPS gain needs to coverage both the risk of rushing into something bad (adds, traps, whatever) AND the community bias toward bad players of that class. At 20% difference, no PUG in their right mind is going to suggest people play something else.

This was pretty much my point... If the easier, safer playstyle is close to the harder, riskier playstyle then no one is going to play the harder style. The risks just wouldn't justify the reward.

[Deleted]

Fel rushing through mobs makes this class fun and unique. If you don't like it, rogues are right there.

[sajin001]

Remind me, which Fury Warrior build lets you opt out of Rampage and which Fire Mage build lets you opt out of Pyroblast?



You do realize that the reason the momentum build is miles ahead of everything else is because that's the playstyle Blizzard wants DH's to use, correct? They intentionally overtuned that build to provide a tip to players who hate it that the class isn't for them if they don't like it.



5% is a small enough window that PUGs will start trying to dictate whether or not I'm allowed to use specific builds due to fear of the terrible DHs who pull everything zipping around blindly. The DPS gain needs to coverage both the risk of rushing into something bad (adds, traps, whatever) AND the community bias toward bad players of that class. At 20% difference, no PUG in their right mind is going to suggest people play something else.

It could also easily be argued that marksmanship hunters get to opt out of having a pet, simplifying their class management and increasing their dps. The issues facing havoc right now are the lackluster talents that only permit the spec to be played one specific way with a specific talent build.

Simply look at other classes, each has talents that are valid choices in multiple tiers. So let's stop with the reroll and gtfo nonsense.

[Hexxidecimal]

Remind me, which Fury Warrior build lets you opt out of Rampage and which Fire Mage build lets you opt out of Pyroblast?

We aren't talking about mages or Warriors here int he Demon Hunter Forums. We are discussing the perceived issues with Demon Hunters. But I can promise that if Pyroblast and Rampage forced a re-position then they would be complaining as much or more. But here is the real issue. Because Fel Rush is so good, MoMo is the ONLY spec worth while. Both Warriors and Mages in their respective trees have options for AoE or Single Target. Demon Hunters though, it's all the same. Both single target and AoE specs are exactly the same with the ONLY option being, maybe Chaos Blades vs Fel Barrage.

You do realize that the reason the momentum build is miles ahead of everything else is because that's the playstyle Blizzard wants DH's to use, correct? They intentionally overtuned that build to provide a tip to players who hate it that the class isn't for them if they don't like it.

Then why have any other build at all if that is what Blizzard "wants". I think that momo is what Blizzard wants to be highest DPS, and I am fine with that. Hell I personally love momentum. The gap though shouldn't be so huge.

5% is a small enough window that PUGs will start trying to dictate whether or not I'm allowed to use specific builds due to fear of the terrible DHs who pull everything zipping around blindly. The DPS gain needs to coverage both the risk of rushing into something bad (adds, traps, whatever) AND the community bias toward bad players of that class. At 20% difference, no PUG in their right mind is going to suggest people play something else.

Hunters with Barrage was a far larger problem (as far as pulling a bunch of adds) previously and I never saw this issue. Now if a hunter ACTUALLY started pulling a bunch of adds then we'd kick, but I never saw one get booted just because he had barrage. 5% is a plenty big difference. Hell I could even go for 8% But 15%-20% is just ridiculous.


All that being said, it is how it is currently. You don't want to Fel Rush on rotation, don't play DH right now. I agree with that sentiment. However that doesn't mean shut your mouth and sit down. Let your concerns be known.

[Nezia]

Fel rushing through mobs makes this class fun and unique. If you don't like it, rogues are right there.

But... but... I wanna be Illidan .

[ehxy]

It's pretty much boiled down to get good because this guy is balling his eyes out over this with every post about it even though it's been pointed out that the damage difference not going the mobility + fel rush route is only a meagre 15% dps difference which in the grand scheme of things does not determine anything and only affects dps meter ego.

So either cry some more or play the way you want to play because it's right there and let's be realistic here. 15% less damage over the fel rush + mobility spec is still amazing damage compared to most of the other classes.

[Hexxidecimal]

It's pretty much boiled down to get good because this guy is balling his eyes out over this with every post about it even though it's been pointed out that the damage difference not going the mobility + fel rush route is only a meagre 15% dps difference which in the grand scheme of things does not determine anything and only affects dps meter ego.

So either cry some more or play the way you want to play because it's right there and let's be realistic here. 15% less damage over the fel rush + mobility spec is still amazing damage compared to most of the other classes.

Seriously? If your entire group felt the same way about their specs then you'd do a whopping 45% less damage. 15% can matter quite a bit, it gets compounded if you just add other DPS with similar attitudes. That 15% can matter a great deal when you are progressing through things.

[kaelleria]

Most people that play wow don't really care about optimizing their dps, mitigation or hps. 15% does matter quite a bit, but most players won't care.

[Kainslife]

It could also easily be argued that marksmanship hunters get to opt out of having a pet

Except their pet is not a rotational ability AND not taking Lone Wolf is a huge DPS loss. Fel Rush is closer to Marked Shot or Aimed Shot for MM. In fact, Blizzard originally had Marksman without a pet but due to community whiny about it they went ahead and added Lone Wolf to the talent tree.

Guess who wins there? Absolutely no one, because now Marksman has an entire dead row because the only choice to play correctly is Lone Wolf. And funnily enough, because so many Demon Hunters obviously will refuse to play around with Fel Rush, Blizzard has had to make half of our rows dead rows to force people to accept Fel Rush as a rotational ability. Because they need to weed out the Illidan wannabees, we have one row of talents that boils down to a choice between ST or AE. Funnily enough, your camp's desire for a non-Fel Rush playstyle probably directly contributed to how hard Blizzard is pushing the Fel Rush playstyle by nerfing every other build into the ground.

If you can't see that as the ultimate evidence that Blizzard fully intends Fel Rush to be used rotationally then I don't know if you'll ever see the truth.

We aren't talking about mages or Warriors here int he Demon Hunter Forums. We are discussing the perceived issues with Demon Hunters. But I can promise that if Pyroblast and Rampage forced a re-position then they would be complaining as much or more.

We absolutely are talking about mages and warriors because we're evaluating the (false) statement that other classes in the game have talents that removecore rotation abilities. The perceived issue is that you don't like using an ability that's inherent to the base class a la Pyroblast or Rampage. The functional up-or-downsides of using any of the core abilities has nothing to do with the argument.

Arguing that Fel Rush should not be part of any Havoc DH's main rotation, regardless of build, is like arguing that a Fire Mage should be able to take a talent to remove the Hot Streak requirement from insta-Pyro or remove the Enrage mechanic from a Fury Warrior. In other words, Fel Rush is to Havoc as Fireball and Rampage are to Fire and Arms.

All that being said, it is how it is currently. You don't want to Fel Rush on rotation, don't play DH right now. I agree with that sentiment. However that doesn't mean shut your mouth and sit down. Let your concerns be known.

It does mean shut up and sit down and here's why: it's how the class is intended to be played. It's how Demon Hunter mains want to play the class. If you don't want to Fel Rush around you do not want to play a Demon Hunter. A person who does not want to use Rampage would never play a Fury Warrior and they certainly wouldn't try to petition Blizzard to try to bring a non-Rampage style into the game, risking that it accidentally becomes the go-to spec, ruining Rampage for all of the Fury Warriors that chose Fury because of the ability.

Similarly, you're asking Blizzard to fundamentally change the way DH plays for only a 5% DPS loss - a DPS loss that could easily become a DPS gain accidentally due to factors unforeseen by Blizzard. In addition, by refusing to play the game properly, you're hurting DH reputation beyond what was already going to be a terrible barrier to try to overcome. You're making it harder for Demon Hunters who play properly because it's easier for people to assume you're going to be garbage.

So yes, please do sit down and be quiet and reroll to something else and stop attempting to ruin the class for the rest of us.

[ehxy]

Seriously? If your entire group felt the same way about their specs then you'd do a whopping 45% less damage. 15% can matter quite a bit, it gets compounded if you just add other DPS with similar attitudes. That 15% can matter a great deal when you are progressing through things.

Doesn't affect me I perform the fel rush mobility combo fine and enjoy it immensely. Your problem is not my problem stop projecting everyone is as shit as you.

[sajin001]

Except their pet is not a rotational ability AND not taking Lone Wolf is a huge DPS loss. Fel Rush is closer to Marked Shot or Aimed Shot for MM. In fact, Blizzard originally had Marksman without a pet but due to community whiny about it they went ahead and added Lone Wolf to the talent tree.

Guess who wins there? Absolutely no one, because now Marksman has an entire dead row because the only choice to play correctly is Lone Wolf. And funnily enough, because so many Demon Hunters obviously will refuse to play around with Fel Rush, Blizzard has had to make half of our rows dead rows to force people to accept Fel Rush as a rotational ability. Because they need to weed out the Illidan wannabees, we have one row of talents that boils down to a choice between ST or AE. Funnily enough, your camp's desire for a non-Fel Rush playstyle probably directly contributed to how hard Blizzard is pushing the Fel Rush playstyle by nerfing every other build into the ground.

If you can't see that as the ultimate evidence that Blizzard fully intends Fel Rush to be used rotationally then I don't know if you'll ever see the truth.



We absolutely are talking about mages and warriors because we're evaluating the (false) statement that other classes in the game have talents that removecore rotation abilities. The perceived issue is that you don't like using an ability that's inherent to the base class a la Pyroblast or Rampage. The functional up-or-downsides of using any of the core abilities has nothing to do with the argument.

Arguing that Fel Rush should not be part of any Havoc DH's main rotation, regardless of build, is like arguing that a Fire Mage should be able to take a talent remove the Enrage mechanic from a Fury Warrior. In other words, Fel Rush is to Havoc as Fireball and Rampage are to Fire and Arms.



It does mean shut up and sit down and here's why: it's how the class is intended to be played. It's how Demon Hunter mains want to play the class. If you don't want to Fel Rush around you do not want to play a Demon Hunter. A person who does not want to use Rampage would never play a Fury Warrior and they certainly wouldn't try to petition Blizzard to try to bring a non-Rampage style into the game, risking that it accidentally becomes the go-to spec, ruining Rampage for all of the Fury Warriors that chose Fury because of the ability.

Similarly, you're asking Blizzard to fundamentally change the way DH plays for only a 5% DPS loss - a DPS loss that could easily become a DPS gain accidentally due to factors unforeseen by Blizzard. In addition, by refusing to play the game properly, you're hurting DH reputation beyond what was already going to be a terrible barrier to try to overcome. You're making it harder for Demon Hunters who play properly because it's easier for people to assume you're going to be garbage.

So yes, please do sit down and be quiet and reroll to something else and stop attempting to ruin the class for the rest of us.

People who want variety from a spec ruin it?

[Kainslife]

People who want variety from a spec ruin it?

No, but no one in this thread is asking for variety.

Your camp is asking for a core, rotationally-mandatory ability to be made optional through talents for a 5% DPS loss. This request is objectively identical to a Fire Mage asking for talents that make Fireball optional. It would be a complete waste of talents, as Blizzard would have to sacrifice talents that would enhance the flavor of the proper build to instead offer talents that would remove it completely. For evidence of this, see how miserable the Marksman tree's first row is - Lone Wolf is the only talent one should ever take in that row and it only exists because Blizzard caved and listened to folks like you asking for core mechanical changes to the spec.

And, on top of that, you want this build to be within 5% DPS of the proper build, at the risk of something unforeseen causing it to actually be stronger than the Fel Rush build, which would completely ruin the class for everyone who is playing one properly and as Blizzard obviously intends them to.

What people in this thread are truly asking for is a third Demon Hunter spec that does not use Fel Rush as part of the core rotation. The fact that Blizzard didn't go that route, and the fact that the Fel Rush / Momentum build is 20% ahead of a non-Fel Rush / Momentum build, should be all of the evidence you need that this is how the class is designed to be played. At this point, any reasonable person takes one of two options - they choose to play correctly and use Fel Rush or they reroll to a class that doesn't have movement and repositioning as part of their skillcap. There are roughly 11 other melee specs to choose from that don't have this core mechanic.

It's unreasonable to expect Blizzard to make a build that doesn't use movement and repositioning as a core gameplay mechanic because they've already done that with every single other melee spec in the game. It would be unreasonable to expect Blizzard to craft a Fire mage build that didn't use Fireball, thus it's unreasonable for you to expect them to craft a Havoc DH build that doesn't use Fel Rush. If you truly want to play a spec that doesn't reposition regularly then you do not want to play DH. You might think you do, but you don't.

[ehxy]

No, but no one in this thread is asking for variety.

Your camp is asking for a core, rotationally-mandatory ability to be made optional through talents for a 5% DPS loss. This request is objectively identical to a Fire Mage asking for talents that make Fireball optional. It would be a complete waste of talents, as Blizzard would have to sacrifice talents that would enhance the flavor of the proper build to instead offer talents that would remove it completely. For evidence of this, see how miserable the Marksman tree's first row is - Lone Wolf is the only talent one should ever take in that row and it only exists because Blizzard caved and listened to folks like you asking for core mechanical changes to the spec.

And, on top of that, you want this build to be within 5% DPS of the proper build, at the risk of something unforeseen causing it to actually be stronger than the Fel Rush build, which would completely ruin the class for everyone who is playing one properly and as Blizzard obviously intends them to.

It's pointless to discuss this with them. Raids will come out and real dps logs will show that demonhunter is 15%-20% behind feral/rogue and they're gonna cry and just swap classes anyway. Fuckem.