How can people say now that Sylvanas isnt evil ?

[Friendlyimmolation]

In what way? Not affectionately, more like a carpenter's tool, I'll buy that one. They're still expendable to the right cause after my understanding.

I'll believe that she's 'good' when I see it.

Now you're just being stubborn it makes it clear she values them more than tools, you don't consider a tool more important than your soul. You will have to wait to see her decision some time in this expansion.

Is she evil to the alliance? Yea who cares, every race is evil to the alliance and vice versa. Sylvanas has done nothing to harm the forsaken nor the horde.

[Deleted]

True it's not. But it's definitely indication that, to whatever extent, she does.

I didn't said that she doesn't feel any sympathy for them. But Edge of Night was desillusioning, even for me.

[Halyon]

Now you're just being stubborn it makes it clear she values them more than tools, you don't consider a tool more important than your soul. You will have to wait to see her decision some time in this expansion.

Is she evil to the alliance? Yea who cares, every race is evil to the alliance and vice versa. Sylvanas has done nothing to harm the forsaken nor the horde.

What Blizzard says and what the character actually does aren't the same thing. Then again, my faith in Blizzard and their writing is pretty low-bar now. Her personality traits that are shown is that she uses the forsaken's inability to repoduce as a scapegoat for her doing really shitty things,she acts cold and disrespectful, especially to the player in Stormheim when she does show up and goes to subjugate the valkyr queen. I can't remember exactly what happened in Helheim atm, and I gtg in like 30 seconds, but she seemed to make a deal with Helya, who is most definately an evil being.

Arguably Blizz should know what Sylvanas does and doesn't care about, they just suck at showing it then.

[Mjolnir84]

Well, you said it yourself, the major Val'kyr can spawn lesser Val'kyr. And the Forsaken didn't invade Stormheim and it's uncertain if Sylvanas wanted to enslave Eyir. The captain log from one of the ships that took part in her mission said she wanted to steal the power of the Val'kyr.

Her current Val'kyr can spawn more, because she clearly had 1-3 more than she originally did at the Broken Shore. No need to enslave even MORE if her own can reproduce/create/spawn/sire/whatever.

And the Forsaken most certainly did invade Stormheim, and it is fairly certain that she wanted to enslave Eyir. They landed/crashed in the area of Maw of Nashal, established a full basecamp (complete with plague wagons leaking their plague/blight all over the place) at Dreadwake's Landing, and straight up attacked the Vrykul Shieldmaidens of Skold-Ashil, followed by Sylvanas binding Eyir with Helya's magic lamp and straight up stating "Submit. The Val'kyr are mine." Pretty sure that ensnaring the Val'kyr queen and telling her that 'the Val'kyr are mine' indicates that she wanted Eyir and the Val'kyr themselves, and not just their powers.

Wolfheart happened after Cataclysm. Northwatch attacking Crossroads and capturing Honor's Stand happened shortly prior to the Cataclysm.

Source? I'm not doubting you, I just never saw an official timeline breakdown of events.

They didn't perform it themselves but they were fine with Scourge doing it at Mord'rethar because they didn't want to try capturing it and they said Scourge pouring acid is better than them pouring the Plague. I kinda doubt they'd care much about Forsaken using acid-like weapons either.

That's because the acid neutralized the plague, so any casualties caused by the acid would not be able to be raised back up by the Scourge. I'll have to redo the questline to gather the full context, but my initial opinion on it is it's better to lose men than to lose men and have them be raised and added to the enemy's army to be used against you.

Koltira enlisted with the Forsaken military and was given specific orders. These orders didn't include singing kumbaya with his best buddy and his position was not that of a diplomat for him to make ceasefire deals. And prior to Genn's nonsense factions were at peace since the end of MoP.

I wouldn't necessarily say they were at peace, I believe there was a temporary and mutual cease-fire in place while they fought the Iron Horde. Just because me and the guy I threw out of the bar last week aren't currently fistfighting each other doesn't mean that we're at peace.

That quest was available from the start. While it was higher level (because it included going into the mine with stronger enemies) it didn't require a specific step of the Battle for Hillsbrad chain to unlock.

Upon second inspection of that quest, I can't help but notice the names of the four humans wanted dead:

Clerk Horace Whitesteed
Citizen Wilkes
Miner Hackett
Farmer Kalaba

Now don't get me wrong, they clearly killed those Forsaken. However, given their titles/roles in the Hillsbrad community, the honest-to-god feeling that I take away from this is that a town clerk, a miner, a farmer, and a random citizen probably didn't go out roaming the countryside hunting Forsaken. I get the impression that perhaps the Forsaken were caught on their lands and were then killed for trespassing, or in self defense. While I WILL acknowledge that nothing in the quest text states this, and that I'm only going off of what I personally feel their titles imply, I will also like to say that nothing in the quest texts states or suggests that these four humans struck the first blow, or instigated the violence. And the complete destruction of an entire town of farmers and miners because of the actions of four individuals seems pretty overkill.

I know the Blight is called the New Plague. Not sure how that's relevant. And Horde didn't forbid it outright. The Horde supplied the Forsaken with selected strain of Blight with their seal of approval. And the Forsaken didn't stop developing the Blight with the Wrathgate. They were perfecting it even in WoD.

I know that they were told to use a weaker strain of the blight, I meant that the full strength new plague was outright forbidden. And the ban didn't matter, since she and her Forsaken clearly used the full-strength plague against Gilneas and in Southshore.

I couldn't find any information pertaining to continuing development and finetuning of the plague in WoD, however. I know one of the Vivienne quests sends you to kill botani because Sylvanas thinks they're similar to Scourge, and wants you to retrieve the (still twitching post-mortem) remains of a botani for study. Nothing there suggests any sort of plague application however.

The problem with WMDs is that they kill indiscriminately and have such a big radius that it's impossible to control them and make them not kill civilians as well. Blight is mostly deployed in barrels launched from catapults which have small radius and since it's a liquid it doesn't spread around like typical chemical weapons. Though there are smaller mana bombs like the ones in Isle of Thunder storyline. And mana bombing of Theramore was fine since there were no civilians there.

The plague seems to be both liquid and gaseous, as evidenced by the plague bombs at Wrathgate and during the Worgen starting experience in Gilneas. Upon impact, the gas does tend to spread out and blanket an area, although admittedly not as great of an area as say, a mana bomb.

And in terms of non-civilian casualties in Theramore, I'm sure that Garrosh wasn't concerned about civilian deaths. An argument can most certainly be made that he didn't wait for the civilians to evacuate before bombing out of concern for them, but due to the fact that once the civilians were evacuated, the bulk of the Alliance military would then be able to get inside the walls and be able to fight all-out.

And my mana bomb reference wasn't intended to be justifying or condemning Theramore, but I was speaking about mana bombs in general. If the Horde started using mana bombs, even the smaller ones from Isle of Thunder that you mentioned, with the same frequency and dependency as the Forsaken with their plague, would that also be an acceptable form of warfare?

[Raetary]

Her current Val'kyr can spawn more, because she clearly had 1-3 more than she originally did at the Broken Shore. No need to enslave even MORE if her own can reproduce/create/spawn/sire/whatever.

lesser val'kyr cant ress her.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The plague used in gilnaes wasn't at full strength, some of the forsaken take note of this during the forsaken front

[Mehrunes]

They do have the luxury of re-building the losses from wars.
And they always have new clans or Kingdoms joining them.

Or just a billion clone soldiers that were in stasis or something, like the Silver Covenant.

Were does it say they can die of natural causes?

Who said anything about natural causes? Azeroth is a carousel of villains and Genn is stuck to Sylvanas like used gum to the sole of a shoe.

I said they did it willingly, doesn't mean new valkyrs will volunteer...I mean, she straight up went to subjugate the valkyr queen by force. No questions asked.

Well, your post merely said "next" so I assumed you were still talking about the same group as the three that did so willingly, but fair enough. And captain log in Azsuna from one of the ships that accompanied her on her mission says Sylvanas wanted to steal the power of the Val'kyr. Could have been metaphorical, but there's a chance it wasn't.

Really? What has changed? She just seems more cunty than usual. The sad violing during Vol'jin's funeral was just stupid. She hasn't acted at all like she's changed for the better, quite on the contrary.

Death of the Lich King happened which forced her to rethink things since her main purpose in unlife vanished with him.

Good thing I disliked him too.

Good for you, I guess?

In what way? Not affectionately, more like a carpenter's tool, I'll buy that one. They're still expendable to the right cause after my understanding.

I'll believe that she's 'good' when I see it.

Unless you know some infantile carpenters or Gollum started to work as one, I can't really see a carpenter referring to their tool as precious.

[Aquamonkey]

In what way? Not affectionately, more like a carpenter's tool, I'll buy that one.

Yep, carpenters definitely struggle with whether they value their tools more than their own souls.

They're still expendable to the right cause after my understanding.

Same for every leader in charge of soldiers' lives.

[Ermelloth]

Frankly, as a devoted Horde player I do feel an obligation to obey Sylvanas, cause she's an acting Warchief. But as a Paladin, I feel just wrong. In general, I really disliked the idea to appoint her as Warchief.

[Mjolnir84]

lesser val'kyr cant ress her.

Even so, from a good/evil perspective...invading a foreign land, killing peaceful inhabitants (peaceful insofar as they never involved themselves with or wronged Sylvanas or the Forsaken) and attempting to enslave and subjugate what essentially act as their gods in order to increase her own power base/gain essential immortality is fairly evil.

Especially since her exact quote to Vol'jin is "In the end, death claims us all." Except her, of course, if she had her own way.

Frankly, as a devoted Horde player I do feel an obligation to obey Sylvanas, cause she's an acting Warchief. But as a Paladin, I feel just wrong. In general, I really disliked the idea to appoint her as Warchief.

As a primarily Horde player, I have to admit that I feel the same obligation to obey/support Sylvanas as I did in MoP to support Garrosh, insofar as I have/had none, Warchief or no.

I have to say, one of the things that I hated about MoP more than anything was the questline to open up the Vale of Eternal Blossoms. When the final trial begins and the vision of your ultimate hatred, as a Horde player, is automatically and always Varian, I got kind of miffed. As both a player, and in the mind's eye of my character (all of them), I did not hate Varian. I hated Garrosh. I understand that from a gameplay perspective that was SUPPOSED to be what my character felt, because Horde vs Alliance, but I can't help but feel that lore-wise, it most certainly would not have been the case. Especially if someone like Vol'jin or Baine or even Sylvanas were to take that trial.

[Mehrunes]

Her current Val'kyr can spawn more, because she clearly had 1-3 more than she originally did at the Broken Shore. No need to enslave even MORE if her own can reproduce/create/spawn/sire/whatever.

I know they can spawn more, I just said it in what you quoted. And as I said two or three posts earlier, she has only 4 major ones left, which is too close for comfort. Once they are gone the Forsaken are fucked.

And the Forsaken most certainly did invade Stormheim, and it is fairly certain that she wanted to enslave Eyir. They landed/crashed in the area of Maw of Nashal, established a full basecamp (complete with plague wagons leaking their plague/blight all over the place) at Dreadwake's Landing, and straight up attacked the Vrykul Shieldmaidens of Skold-Ashil, followed by Sylvanas binding Eyir with Helya's magic lamp and straight up stating "Submit. The Val'kyr are mine." Pretty sure that ensnaring the Val'kyr queen and telling her that 'the Val'kyr are mine' indicates that she wanted Eyir and the Val'kyr themselves, and not just their powers.

I mean, I just mentioned an in-game source that indicates otherwise about Eyir, but sure. And who did they invade? Because Stormheim isn't even under a single jurisdiction. Worgen landed, made camps and attacked Skold-Ashil too. As for leaking Blight, you have Genn to thank for that.

Source? I'm not doubting you, I just never saw an official timeline breakdown of events.

I'd say the source for Wolfheart taking place after Catacylsm would be Wolfheart itself. As for Northwatch attacking Barrens prior to the Cataclysm: http://wow.gamepedia.com/Kilrok_Gorehammer#Gossip_text

That's because the acid neutralized the plague, so any casualties caused by the acid would not be able to be raised back up by the Scourge. I'll have to redo the questline to gather the full context, but my initial opinion on it is it's better to lose men than to lose men and have them be raised and added to the enemy's army to be used against you.

I know, but I'd say it's strong indication that the Ebon Blade wouldn't care if Forsaken melted people that matter little to the Ebon Blade.

I wouldn't necessarily say they were at peace, I believe there was a temporary and mutual cease-fire in place while they fought the Iron Horde. Just because me and the guy I threw out of the bar last week aren't currently fistfighting each other doesn't mean that we're at peace.

War Crimes mentions peace.

Now don't get me wrong, they clearly killed those Forsaken. However, given their titles/roles in the Hillsbrad community, the honest-to-god feeling that I take away from this is that a town clerk, a miner, a farmer, and a random citizen probably didn't go out roaming the countryside hunting Forsaken. I get the impression that perhaps the Forsaken were caught on their lands and were then killed for trespassing, or in self defense. While I WILL acknowledge that nothing in the quest text states this, and that I'm only going off of what I personally feel their titles imply, I will also like to say that nothing in the quest texts states or suggests that these four humans struck the first blow, or instigated the violence. And the complete destruction of an entire town of farmers and miners because of the actions of four individuals seems pretty overkill.

Forsaken grasp on Hillsbrad was flimsy during vanilla and they sent scouts all over the place. You met them in multiple places, mostly the ruined towers. Maybe the people of Hillsbrad mistook them for Scourge (or didn't even know free willed undead are a thing, after all there was even another free willed undead in Tirisfal itself that wasn't aware of the Forsaken), maybe they don't kindly to trespassers. And "there's no kill like overkill" is pretty much Forsaken's national motto. Of course they could strike the first blow, but it's uncertain.

I know that they were told to use a weaker strain of the blight, I meant that the full strength new plague was outright forbidden. And the ban didn't matter, since she and her Forsaken clearly used the full-strength plague against Gilneas and in Southshore.

It's uncertain whether Southshore happened prior to the ban or after it. And the strain in Gilneas was so weak that it didn't slow the Worgen down.

I couldn't find any information pertaining to continuing development and finetuning of the plague in WoD, however. I know one of the Vivienne quests sends you to kill botani because Sylvanas thinks they're similar to Scourge, and wants you to retrieve the (still twitching post-mortem) remains of a botani for study. Nothing there suggests any sort of plague application however.

Forsaken NPCs in Ashran mention how they'll be able to create the strongest strain yet with the savage™ ingredients of Draenor.

The plague seems to be both liquid and gaseous, as evidenced by the plague bombs at Wrathgate and during the Worgen starting experience in Gilneas. Upon impact, the gas does tend to spread out and blanket an area, although admittedly not as great of an area as say, a mana bomb.

It creates some fumes that are deadly too, but that seems to be very limited in area and I think it's mostly seen when the Blight is still stored and not so much after it's launched and the volatile nature of it makes the barrels tear to shreds. As for Wrathgate, I'd say Putress needed some kind of incendiary device to make such an explosion. The Blight is flammable after all.

And in terms of non-civilian casualties in Theramore, I'm sure that Garrosh wasn't concerned about civilian deaths. An argument can most certainly be made that he didn't wait for the civilians to evacuate before bombing out of concern for them, but due to the fact that once the civilians were evacuated, the bulk of the Alliance military would then be able to get inside the walls and be able to fight all-out.

I know Garrosh wasn't concerned about the civilians. I meant the particular use and its immediate circumstances, not Garrosh's motives.

And my mana bomb reference wasn't intended to be justifying or condemning Theramore, but I was speaking about mana bombs in general. If the Horde started using mana bombs, even the smaller ones from Isle of Thunder that you mentioned, with the same frequency and dependency as the Forsaken with their plague, would that also be an acceptable form of warfare?

I think the smaller mana bombs can barely destroy a single ship, so yeah, they would be akin to mines and things like that.

[omeomorfismo]

Because she was dedicated to a cause? Her past deeds doesn't excuse current events that most definately paint her as 'evil'.

wtf? so when she uses that metaphor in life she cares about her people, but suddendly in unlife these same words are the proof that she doesnt care about her people? by what logic?

[Sigxy]

Even so, from a good/evil perspective...invading a foreign land, killing peaceful inhabitants (peaceful insofar as they never involved themselves with or wronged Sylvanas or the Forsaken) and attempting to enslave and subjugate what essentially act as their gods in order to increase her own power base/gain essential immortality is fairly evil.

Couldn't agree more. Right now there's a war between the Alliance, the Horde and the Legion. She had -no reason- to try capture someone of such importance who is NOT fighting the Horde, nor are they allies with the Alliance. I mean, she was providing Odyn with more soldiers and they are going to fight the Legion, no? The whole reason the Halls of Valor existing so if something that is threatening the whole Azeroth, they would help to stop it? Way to make sure you get to keep yourself alive at the cost of even less forces to deal with the Legion, Sylvanas. >.<

[Maxilian]

Couldn't agree more. Right now there's a war between the Alliance, the Horde and the Legion. She had -no reason- to try capture someone of such importance who is NOT fighting the Horde, nor are they allies with the Alliance. I mean, she was providing Odyn with more soldiers and they are going to fight the Legion, no? The whole reason the Halls of Valor existing so if something that is threatening the whole Azeroth, they would help to stop it? Way to make sure you get to keep yourself alive at the cost of even less forces to deal with the Legion, Sylvanas. >.<

Odyn's soldiers are trapped in Valhalar (thanks to Helya), Sylvanas made a pact with Helya (we don't know what the pact was) but having in mind that Odyn is Helya's hated enemy.

So... in short, no she did not get less forces to fight the Legion (also those that die in Valhalar, don't really die, they just die and ressurect once again there -that's like the good thing of that place for the Vrykul-)

[Halyon]

Yep, carpenters definitely struggle with whether they value their tools more than their own souls.


Same for every leader in charge of soldiers' lives.

I don't think you know how much just 1 good tool you're familiar with is worth...

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wtf? so when she uses that metaphor in life she cares about her people, but suddendly in unlife these same words are the proof that she doesnt care about her people? by what logic?

Being an undead has twisted her emotions, if she even has them.

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I think the smaller mana bombs can barely destroy a single ship, so yeah, they would be akin to mines and things like that.

Mines don't care who they kill though, you can at least aim a fireball to 1 specific target.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I don't think you know how much just 1 good tool you're familiar with is worth...

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Being an undead has twisted her emotions, if she even has them.

You're right, I would suffer eternal damnation to keep my surface pro from dying.

[nerv234]

Evil Sylvanas is in fact very borring thread. Let's focus on blizzard moving their asses and develop Trolls architecture and made proper troll city.

[Raetary]

Evil Sylvanas is in fact very borring thread. Let's focus on blizzard moving their asses and develop Trolls architecture and made proper troll city.

the topic is about sylvanas, if you want to talk about trolls, you are free to open a thread.

[Halyon]

You're right, I would suffer eternal damnation to keep my surface pro from dying.

If it's your livelihood, you might.

[Friendlyimmolation]

If it's your livelihood, you might.

If I only cared about the tool as a sheild from potwntial death, there would be no qualms in throwing it away if the alternative was assured death. This isn't the case as per her legion bio, which makes this whole argument null.