Is Shadow Priest supposed to be this miserable?

[Woop Woop]

Shadow priests are very well off when it comes to single target or even up to 3 targets. Where we don't shine is many targets. And that's acceptable. Noxxic has us ranked 4th on single target fights and FIRST in 3 target fights. I think that is a pretty damn good spot to be in.



Personally, I don't mess with that talent even though its sims higher. I run Legacy of the Void. I don't like talents or spells that kill you.

I dont like it either, but its mandatory in raids. We only sim top 5 with it, without it we are one of the bottom specs...

[Granyala]

Yep, shadow is miserable outside of any raiding environment.
But that has always been the case at the beginning of an expansion, ever since cata.

W/o 1st Tier epics, shadow is simply put: broken.

For easy questing with crap gear I prefer Disc.

[Djriff]

I dont like it either, but its mandatory in raids. We only sim top 5 with it, without it we are one of the bottom specs...

Honestly take any "sims" you see with a large grain of salt. Lots of em that I've seen don't bother detailing fight length or type.

I took a look at noxxic over the weekend and as usual it's laughably wrong. Their sims for shadow are putting it ahead of where it should be at 840 ilvl with StM and honestly if it's that wrong on shadow, it's probably wrong on other classes.

[GT4]

Honestly take any "sims" you see with a large grain of salt. Lots of em that I've seen don't bother detailing fight length or type.

I took a look at noxxic over the weekend and as usual it's laughably wrong. Their sims for shadow are putting it ahead of where it should be at 840 ilvl with StM and honestly if it's that wrong on shadow, it's probably wrong on other classes.

It's not exactly hard to download simc yourself and simulate for whatever fight conditions you want to look at using whatever gear you believe to be reasonable... or just play different classes yourself and see the difference in-game.

In progress gear, compared to other casters S2M SP is doing well and LotV shadow is among the worst. Now add that the highest melees are significantly stronger than the highest casters (by like >20%) and that shadow is really bad at focusing down adds and LotV shadow is looking really bad with gear that's available during progress raids (as it currently stands).

Of course all of this is going to change with the first batch of balance changes that will probably come with raid release or shortly afterwards.

[Djriff]

It's not exactly hard to download simc yourself and simulate for whatever fight conditions you want to look at using whatever gear you believe to be reasonable... or just play different classes yourself and see the difference in-game.

True, or use Beotorch for a quick and dirty sim/comparison.

Hell I ran some sims on myself for ~3 hours across a bunch of different talent/gear combinations and was quite surprised to find Void Lord and Mind Spike performing so well. Granted StM knocked them all out of the park regardless of talent setup, but seeing that talenting Mind Spike and Void Lord could give me 20k more dps than my current setup was surprising.

In progress gear, compared to other casters S2M SP is doing well and LotV shadow is among the worst. Now add that the highest melees are significantly stronger than the highest casters (by like >20%) and that shadow is really bad at focusing down adds and LotV shadow is looking really bad with gear that's available during progress raids (as it currently stands).

Of course all of this is going to change with the first batch of balance changes that will probably come with raid release or shortly afterwards.

Define progress gear. I'm currently sitting in mostly BiS 840+ gear that I won't be replacing until Mythic stuff drops. Even then half the gear there would be a down grade since I'm rocking high haste low crit gear.

[GT4]

True, or use Beotorch for a quick and dirty sim/comparison.

Hell I ran some sims on myself for ~3 hours across a bunch of different talent/gear combinations and was quite surprised to find Void Lord and Mind Spike performing so well. Granted StM knocked them all out of the park regardless of talent setup, but seeing that talenting Mind Spike and Void Lord could give me 20k more dps than my current setup was surprising.

Define progress gear. I'm currently sitting in mostly BiS 840+ gear that I won't be replacing until Mythic stuff drops. Even then half the gear there would be a down grade since I'm rocking high haste low crit gear.

Progress gear (for me) is pretty much what you'll have during most of progress raids. Given how reliant SP is on haste/crit, that will probably be mostly the same gear as now (e.g. crafted rings/neck) plus the odd item from raids and possibly a few upgrades from mythic+. So around 860 ilevel maybe.

SP becomes significantly better once you actually have access to all the gear that's available in both raids because you'll be able to deck out most slots with high ilevel haste/crit and SP scales the best out of all classes with secondary stats.

As for the mind spike/void lord setup: I also noticed that but that's purely for patchwerk since you're basically putting all your talents into filler damage instead of more DoT damage and higher void form uptime (= more instant void bolts). I've also looked through the sims and I'm not 100% positive that the difference isn't just caused by an error in the module or APL. Correct me if I'm wrong but theoretically a mind spike cast should only do 5% more damage than two ticks of mind flay within the same time span and generate the same amount of insanity. Thus, when perfectly played, you should at most be seeing a 5% DPS increase of your filler (typically less because clipping MF early during void form is supposedly a DPS gain and not possible with mind spike). Subsequently, either my assumptions are off and e.g. the mind spike debuff does more damage than stated or there's something off with the APL or the engine.

[Deleted]

Gameplay of spriests has never been better, it's so much fun, the difficulty is a two edged blade - at low ilvl you really feel the struggle but as you gear and learn the spec you really feel powerful.
The fact other classes trivialise content we find hard isn't an issue with our class. Dh for example should not be able to ding 110 and then solo kill 12 mobs in 10 second.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm hoping we aren't nerfed before raid release and I'm vainly hoping we get buffed so it's easier to trash other classes but thats the inner glory hog in me talking

[Palaryel]

Considering they didnt even bother to mention SP at all both during the QnA and in the forum explanations after (and they focused on warlocks on both ocasions), I highly doubt they will do anything to change shadow to have more AoE. The reasoning behind this is that any significant changes require them to change S2M (to avoid indirectly buffing it) and we all saw that S2M is something they desperately want shadow to have.

[tiptopmemer]

Personally, I don't mess with that talent even though its sims higher. I run Legacy of the Void. I don't like talents or spells that kill you.

And this is why your opinion is utterly irrelevant.

The dps benefit of LotV? essentially 0, because you want to be at 90 insanity when you want to enter void form.

[Deleted]

Shadow priests are very well off when it comes to single target or even up to 3 targets. Where we don't shine is many targets. And that's acceptable. Noxxic has us ranked 4th on single target fights and FIRST in 3 target fights. I think that is a pretty damn good spot to be in.



Personally, I don't mess with that talent even though its sims higher. I run Legacy of the Void. I don't like talents or spells that kill you.

I'm sorry but - why are you here? This discussion is obviously heavily tied to numbers and if you don't care you should not partake in it. Without S2M we are trash tier.

[Djriff]

And this is why your opinion is utterly irrelevant.

The dps benefit of LotV? essentially 0, because you want to be at 90 insanity when you want to enter void form.

85 Insanity, but essentially correct. Also add to the fact that Mind Spike is doing better >>

I'm sorry but - why are you here? This discussion is obviously heavily tied to numbers and if you don't care you should not partake in it. Without S2M we are trash tier.

There's actually some truth to that statement. No class tank or otherwise should be able to just plow through mobs at a breakneck pace unless they significantly outgear the content.

Yeah it sucked at like ~835 ilvl, but now i'm 848 it's smooth sailing. I'm steadily ahead on ST fights without StM. Secondary stats have a lot more weight now than they ever have and you could be 880 but if you have mastery/vers gear you might as well be 830 for all the DPS you're going to do.

[GT4]

I'm steadily ahead on ST fights without StM.

Compared to whom?

I really hate seeing all these posts stating they're ahead in single target fights without any numbers or context. If I'm running PUGs and/or with other classes who are bottom tier single target DPS, I'll also be ahead for every single target fight but that's not a reasonable comparison. Being the best of the worst still isn't good.

[Djriff]

Compared to whom?

I really hate seeing all these posts stating they're ahead in single target fights without any numbers or context. If I'm running PUGs and/or with other classes who are bottom tier single target DPS, I'll also be ahead for every single target fight but that's not a reasonable comparison. Being the best of the worst still isn't good.

So far, Fire Mage, Rogues, Warriors, Hunters, DH, tanks, shamans, and aff locks.

I've been beaten by a WW monk, and that's the only one i really remember.

Most of those were pugs, however the fire mage, DH, tanks, and aff locks, were guildies.

WW was a pug for sure, and honestly i wasn't too surprised.

I'm running them this week with guildies and i'll be logging it. Will be interesting to see how everyone is comparatively now.

[Dawnrage]

So far, Fire Mage, Rogues, Warriors, Hunters, DH, tanks, shamans, and aff locks.

I've been beaten by a WW monk, and that's the only one i really remember.

Most of those were pugs, however the fire mage, DH, tanks, and aff locks, were guildies.

WW was a pug for sure, and honestly i wasn't too surprised.

I'm running them this week with guildies and i'll be logging it. Will be interesting to see how everyone is comparatively now.

Are you planning to stream your mythic runs?

[Vaarj]

It just doesn't feel worth it to play Shadow Priest anymore in my opinion.

Complex rotation to get worse, or maybe comparable DPS in some select situations, but only if you die afterwards, who ever thought this was a good idea?

I started out this expansion on my S.Priest, but all through questing 100-110 i feel like a wet paper bag.

It might get better when we get really good gear, but getting there involves intentionally gimping yourself (and your group in dungeons) for a (maybe) slight benefit in raiding at high Ilvl.

This is the first time I've rerolled after years of playing this spec, and unless Blizzard does something about it, it might actually stick.

[Deleted]

It just doesn't feel worth it to play Shadow Priest anymore in my opinion.

Complex rotation to get worse, or maybe comparable DPS in some select situations, but only if you die afterwards, who ever thought this was a good idea?

I started out this expansion on my S.Priest, but all through questing 100-110 i feel like a wet paper bag.

It might get better when we get really good gear, but getting there involves intentionally gimping yourself (and your group in dungeons) for a (maybe) slight benefit in raiding at high Ilvl.

This is the first time I've rerolled after years of playing this spec, and unless Blizzard does something about it, it might actually stick.

i've had much less trouble questing as a shadow priest than with a mage. Just take masochism for heal and don't forget to use your selfheal and shield, its really not difficult unless you try to aggro many mobs and expect to perform well with our shitty AOE.

And thank god the rotation is "complex", its actually quite simple but its still more interesting than 90% of the rollface specs in Legion. I much prefer good gameplay over braindead gameplay. Fuck those WW /DH fotm players

[Djriff]

Are you planning to stream your mythic runs?

Yes. Tried doing some logs of heroic last night and for some reason combat log stopped logging >> so I got a whopping 1 trash pack.

Might end up running Mythics on Thursday because GM thought it would be a great idea to build a 35m roster >>

i've had much less trouble questing as a shadow priest than with a mage. Just take masochism for heal and don't forget to use your selfheal and shield, its really not difficult unless you try to aggro many mobs and expect to perform well with our shitty AOE.

No offense but you've been playing a mage wrong then. Mage is light years ahead of shadow in terms of leveling speed. You can easily pull 4+ packs and just nuke them down at range as fire and laugh.

[justflayin]

Yes. Tried doing some logs of heroic last night and for some reason combat log stopped logging >> so I got a whopping 1 trash pack.

Might end up running Mythics on Thursday because GM thought it would be a great idea to build a 35m roster >>


No offense but you've been playing a mage wrong then. Mage is light years ahead of shadow in terms of leveling speed. You can easily pull 4+ packs and just nuke them down at range as fire and laugh.

It's hilarious how much I can mow down quest mobs on my fire mage compared to how I was doing it on my priest lol.

[Dawnrage]

Yes. Tried doing some logs of heroic last night and for some reason combat log stopped logging >> so I got a whopping 1 trash pack.

Might end up running Mythics on Thursday because GM thought it would be a great idea to build a 35m roster >>

Ok cool, will check it out. Hard to find gameplay of any high end shadowpriests.

[Deleted]

Yes. Tried doing some logs of heroic last night and for some reason combat log stopped logging >> so I got a whopping 1 trash pack.

Might end up running Mythics on Thursday because GM thought it would be a great idea to build a 35m roster >>


No offense but you've been playing a mage wrong then. Mage is light years ahead of shadow in terms of leveling speed. You can easily pull 4+ packs and just nuke them down at range as fire and laugh.

The thing is I don't spec as fire but arcane or frost. Yeah there are actually two other specs with mage, non FOTM specs that is and they are very far from being good at leveling even if nothing is very difficult with any class of course. But you have way too much blinking, nova, kitting while shadow priest just blasts things, heals easily and shields easily.

If people believe that shadow priest is a pain to level then we must not play the same game or they don't even try to learn the core abilities of this spec and pretend like a caster can just facetank 4 mobs at once (only warlocks can do that)

Mages have conjure refreshment for a reason ^^