Is Shadow Priest supposed to be this miserable?

[Woop Woop]

Perhaps, but we already settled for the fact SP is bad in AOE.

Ah, i see. So we simply accept that? I was under the impression that if there was something broken about a class (OP, UP etc) its a good thing to bring attention to it on various forums.

[Baelic]

Ah, i see. So we simply accept that? I was under the impression that if there was something broken about a class (OP, UP etc) its a good thing to bring attention to it on various forums.

It's still worthwhile to bring it up for constructive discussion purposes. Just realize that the chances of any changes happening are very slim, Shadow AoE hasn't been good for a few expansions now.

[KaPe]

It's still worthwhile to bring it up for constructive discussion purposes. Just realize that the chances of any changes happening are very slim, Shadow AoE hasn't been good for a few expansions now.

Dungeons also weren't relevant for several expansions. If this is supposed to be changing in Legion, so should "well, class X sucks in five mans, that's just how it is". It's not like it would take a complete redesign to make it work. Just as long as it isn't "you're fine on bosses, you're not getting an AOE buff".

[Scooby Dooby Doo]

Is Shadow Priest supposed to be this miserable?

yes. shadow has always been miserable in everything that isn't a very specific 3v3 or rbg team/combo tailored to babysit your spec or pve bosses with long execute phases.

[Reposed]

You know, if they just doubled Mind Seer & Mind Flay damage, it would be a good start, and would bring our AoE to at least a respectable level, and would help on dungeon bosses (ST) as well boosting non-StM damage (only a bit though), and wouldn't change a thing when using StM either. Simple change = win?

[KaPe]

It wouldn't really help. We already have +50% dmg talent and it barely changes a thing in Mind Sear output. I mean, yeah, killing 300k trash would now take 15 seconds instead of 30, but it's not 'respectable level'.

[ydraw]

From my experiences so far in dungeons and while solo I've had little trouble keeping up.

I don't really care about performance on trash

You should care though. Trash is the majority of what you do in dungeons, and dungeons are a major part of PvE in this expansion, much more so than in any expansion that has come before. If your class sucks in dungeons then your class sucks. Having 2 of the 3 priest specs being the dead set worst spec in the game at their role in 5 man content is pretty ridiculous.

[Dakiri]

You should care though. Trash is the majority of what you do in dungeons, and dungeons are a major part of PvE in this expansion, much more so than in any expansion that has come before. If your class sucks in dungeons then your class sucks. Having 2 of the 3 priest specs being the dead set worst spec in the game at their role in 5 man content is pretty ridiculous.

It's not just that trash is most of dungeons. In the dungeons that are out now, shadow priests are slow at killing trash, but assuming your tank/healer are competent, you can still finish the dungeon. It will be slow, but you will still finish. Even in raids, having shadow priests means the trash will go down slower and things will take longer, but you will still eventually get to bosses.

But mythic+ is set up to be an alternate form of endgame progression, and it is timed. Unlike other forms of content, "killing trash slowly" is not just an annoyance that makes things take longer, but can mean you basically fail the dungeon. Hopefully in higher level mythic+ since the trash lives longer shadow won't be as far behind, but it will still be frustrating that killing trash faster will be a vital part of dungeons, and shadow is so weak at doing so.

[Baelic]

It's not just that trash is most of dungeons. In the dungeons that are out now, shadow priests are slow at killing trash, but assuming your tank/healer are competent, you can still finish the dungeon. It will be slow, but you will still finish. Even in raids, having shadow priests means the trash will go down slower and things will take longer, but you will still eventually get to bosses.

But mythic+ is set up to be an alternate form of endgame progression, and it is timed. Unlike other forms of content, "killing trash slowly" is not just an annoyance that makes things take longer, but can mean you basically fail the dungeon. Hopefully in higher level mythic+ since the trash lives longer shadow won't be as far behind, but it will still be frustrating that killing trash faster will be a vital part of dungeons, and shadow is so weak at doing so.

Part of why "Shadow sucks at 5-mans" is because Trash dies so fast from burst AoE classes before we can ramp up though. We'll essentially be a stop-gap for when the burst ends.

[Guffnat]

PvP Talents like Driven to Madness, Psychic Link or Shadow Mania would be amazing for questing and trash in dungeons without being too strong on single target fights.

[renji1337]

"You should care though. Trash is the majority of what you do in dungeons, and dungeons are a major part of PvE in this expansion, much more so than in any expansion that has come before. If your class sucks in dungeons then your class sucks. Having 2 of the 3 priest specs being the dead set worst spec in the game at their role in 5 man content is pretty ridiculous."

I think people are misunderstanding that mythic+ is actually that hard. People were pugging mythic 7s and 8s with no issues on the beta with time remaining. Mythic 10 is where the gear ilvl stops increasing. Mythic 12 awards no better gear then mythic 10. If you are pushing past 10, then you need to start really getting into the best M+ comps.

Mythic 10 awards a 865 piece, and a 880 piece ( you only do 1 mythic for the 880 weekly piece ) While Dungeons are more investing this time around, they are still not as important as heroic and mythic raids.

If you play a great ST spec or class, you supplement your dungeon group with great AOE specs. (Take a DH for example for AOE DPS)

In most of the M+ dungeons, if the tank knows what he is doing, you wont have an issue with trash, and CC will be used in pugs, you will not be mass chain pulling in pugs.

Most Mythic+ deaths are from bosses, or acidentally pulling skippable trash. You will be skipping lots of trash in certain dungeons and can use invis pots, this effectively lowers AOE's worth on trash mobs.

Nightmare Bolt on Xavius for example does more damage than dps have hp. It was hitting for over 2 million at M10.

The only M+ with notable difficulty with trash, is halls of valor

If they make alot of the trash unskippable in these dungeons, this will change, but as it stands a overwhelming amount of trash is 100% skippable

SPriests are still in a bad state though as even there ST isn't that amazing. If they were doing 310k+ ST DPS, there AOE lacks wouldn't be as important as they would be filling in another classes ST lacks like BM/MM hunters (whom only do around 230-240k ST, but have great AOE)

[GT4]

"You should care though. Trash is the majority of what you do in dungeons, and dungeons are a major part of PvE in this expansion, much more so than in any expansion that has come before. If your class sucks in dungeons then your class sucks. Having 2 of the 3 priest specs being the dead set worst spec in the game at their role in 5 man content is pretty ridiculous."

I think people are misunderstanding that mythic+ is actually that hard. People were pugging mythic 7s and 8s with no issues on the beta with time remaining. Mythic 10 is where the gear ilvl stops increasing. Mythic 12 awards no better gear then mythic 10. If you are pushing past 10, then you need to start really getting into the best M+ comps.

Mythic 10 awards a 865 piece, and a 880 piece ( you only do 1 mythic for the 880 weekly piece ) While Dungeons are more investing this time around, they are still not as important as heroic and mythic raids.

If you play a great ST spec or class, you supplement your dungeon group with great AOE specs. (Take a DH for example for AOE DPS)

In most of the M+ dungeons, if the tank knows what he is doing, you wont have an issue with trash, and CC will be used in pugs, you will not be mass chain pulling in pugs.

Most Mythic+ deaths are from bosses, or acidentally pulling skippable trash. You will be skipping lots of trash in certain dungeons and can use invis pots, this effectively lowers AOE's worth on trash mobs.

Nightmare Bolt on Xavius for example does more damage than dps have hp. It was hitting for over 2 million at M10.

The only M+ with notable difficulty with trash, is halls of valor

If they make alot of the trash unskippable in these dungeons, this will change, but as it stands a overwhelming amount of trash is 100% skippable

SPriests are still in a bad state though as even there ST isn't that amazing. If they were doing 310k+ ST DPS, there AOE lacks wouldn't be as important as they would be filling in another classes ST lacks like BM/MM hunters (whom only do around 230-240k ST, but have great AOE)

As long as there's a timer and you have to do most of the trash in the dungeon, having shitty AoE will be a huge liability no matter how easy the trash is.

In fact, the easier the trash, the better off you'll be by stacking AoE damage and pulling more of that trash together - see challenge modes in the past.

In addition to that, you're giving the impression that only being able to do e.g. Mythic10 isn't a downside. In reality, being able to run up to e.g. Mythic15 means you'll have 6 times as many 865 items which have a chance to be upgraded to 880+ as well.

[renji1337]

As long as there's a timer and you have to do most of the trash in the dungeon, having shitty AoE will be a huge liability no matter how easy the trash is.

In fact, the easier the trash, the better off you'll be by stacking AoE damage and pulling more of that trash together - see challenge modes in the past.

In addition to that, you're giving the impression that only being able to do e.g. Mythic10 isn't a downside. In reality, being able to run up to e.g. Mythic15 means you'll have 6 times as many 865 items which have a chance to be upgraded to 880+ as well.

When you start getting into the higher mythic levels, ST DPS becomes quite important as mobs don't die fast. From watching the beta streams ferals weren't outdoing anything at mythic 1-7ish other then boss DPS, but after M+8 Ferals started rising on the meters because of 2-3 target cleave. One of M10 comps that got streamed was a DH, Fire Mage and Feral combo.

for SPriests, they either need an AOE buff or more ST damage at this point with cleaving ability, they are hard to balance though, especially because of there PVP ability

Something to keep in mind is also that a insane amount of Mythic+ trash is skippable.

[Deleted]

PvP Talents like Driven to Madness, Psychic Link or Shadow Mania would be amazing for questing and trash in dungeons without being too strong on single target fights.

I'm saying this from pre-patch days... I totally agree ! And i can't believe that people stay in numbers and whinning than improvise and toss ideas around...
for example LotV should be merged with Edge of insanity...And be like: You can enter VF from 70% Ins, but when you are at 100% ins you get 30% bonus damage...
So it would be tricky on how to use, but a good pick of actions can make it work like perfectly... you will need a bit of timing and set up so you can get the full out of it...
And is say that like this because... they just took shadowform and made it a CD in the case of VF... However without VF you are just losing DPS and in PvP you just need to set it up...
Entering VF is still optimum as you get a bonus instant spell that refreshes DoTs as well... you get 20% damage instead of 30% of EoI, but you build up haste so you can use it with EoI for less than a minute...should be a bit over 30sec if i count correct... So it's not like you'll get all permanent and you'll have to work with it... And VF has a + that it cooperates with the artifact talent that gives you 2% more dot damage per sec, In VF...So you will pursue using it...especially after the point where you will can stay even more in VF.
And the whole thing would be good for world content since maintening 30% damage would be easy...while open VF only to burst a mob so it won't get you half HP is a bit...unfun and tiring after a point.
And all in all it would make the curve in our DPS a bit more shallow and smooth.

Another suggestion that crosses my mind is Vtor to enter you instantly in VF, so you won't have to cast VEr in order to use it... I don't really have a problem... but seems clunky... or VEr baseling instant would be more than OK. Also Ver Hits AoE so .. it can have its use anyway...

It just seems that they've put PvE talents in PvP tree, and PvP tree lacks what it needs-that is CC and durability(they've put all survivability talents in a row...and the best of them seems to be the ex-baseline Dispersion that you get 5% damage and renew half your total HP and you can hit it in VF as it gives you extra seconds in VF to counter attack, it's great for reset, while your shield doesn't survive long... and 33% leech is when you can do damage with the shield on... it doesn't really make you survive in a stun/interrupt).
As it is now it seems like SP is solely for the purpose of Raiding and 3v3/RBGs while solo content and more viable content (as for numbers,like M and M+ when it comes) are a bit out of the question - You can still do them but it's more of the others opinion on the matter...to carry you or not...And i don't believe that this should happen in any clas/spec...
You don't have to have a class/spec that is teh best in everything, but it should excel in one department and just be viable in others... so you can have fun and compete reather than having fun vs compete...

[Fascinate]

When you start getting into the higher mythic levels, ST DPS becomes quite important as mobs don't die fast. From watching the beta streams ferals weren't outdoing anything at mythic 1-7ish other then boss DPS, but after M+8 Ferals started rising on the meters because of 2-3 target cleave. One of M10 comps that got streamed was a DH, Fire Mage and Feral combo.

for SPriests, they either need an AOE buff or more ST damage at this point with cleaving ability, they are hard to balance though, especially because of there PVP ability

Something to keep in mind is also that a insane amount of Mythic+ trash is skippable.

PvP balancing is now completely separate, plus shadow is only good in one specific bracket of pvp. Duels/1v1/2v2 we are still potatoes.

[GT4]

When you start getting into the higher mythic levels, ST DPS becomes quite important as mobs don't die fast. From watching the beta streams ferals weren't outdoing anything at mythic 1-7ish other then boss DPS, but after M+8 Ferals started rising on the meters because of 2-3 target cleave. One of M10 comps that got streamed was a DH, Fire Mage and Feral combo.

for SPriests, they either need an AOE buff or more ST damage at this point with cleaving ability, they are hard to balance though, especially because of there PVP ability

Something to keep in mind is also that a insane amount of Mythic+ trash is skippable.

The difference here is that ferals are pretty much the highest single target class in the game right now while having similar multi-dotting potential to SPs (especially once you include legendaries). In addition to that, the option of going brutal slash for short AoE is much stronger than shadow's option to go shadow crash.

Compared to that, SP only becomes really strong single target (and even then not necessarily best) with crazy gear and S2M - the latter being useless for trash in 99.9% of all cases.

As mentioned previously, the skippable part doesn't really matter when you have a certain amount of trash you need to do to fill the bar. Being able to do that amount of trash more quickly will always be advantageous. This aspect is really not different to challenge modes. Even though you could skip a lot there as well, you'd still have a huge advantage if you could just AoE down the trash that you need to do. In fact, typically this even favours AoE classes because most efficient trash to do tends to be the AoE packs and not the single HP mobs.

As for PvP: I have my doubts that shadow is actually still really strong after the PvP talents were nerfed one after another in the last few weeks of beta and resto shamans got tuned down a bit as well. Shadow is very prone to just being bursted down by all the melee cleaves that are dominating right now because they're now even less durable than a mage. With the removal of shadow form, SPs now have the lowest passive survivability in the game. Even fire mages which have a lot more mobility and strong outs (double ice block) have a passive 6% physical damage reduction in the form of molten armor.

Having said that, between PvP stat templates and PvP spell coefficients PvP really shouldn't be part of this discussion.

[Fascinate]

I surprised myself yesterday in halls of valor, i was sustaining 240k+ dps on trash packs. Albeit this was only because i was running with undergeared people so the trash lived long enough for me to do that, in a group of geared players who know how to press buttons its just really sad lol. (600k+ monks and demon hunters)

[l33t]

I'm saying this from pre-patch days... I totally agree ! And i can't believe that people stay in numbers and whinning than improvise and toss ideas around...

Don't want to ruin your shiny bubble, but priests threads got hundreds of ideas during beta and during prepatch. Sadly, Blizzard went full retard with "LALALA WE DON'T HEAR YOU LALALA YOU HAVE STM LALALALA" and made no reaction, like, at ALL. So, we have what we have now.

[philefluxx]

It's still worthwhile to bring it up for constructive discussion purposes. Just realize that the chances of any changes happening are very slim, Shadow AoE hasn't been good for a few expansions now.

A few expansions? Mind Seer has never been good or on par with other classes AoE. Dont you remember when it didn't even damage the mob it was casted on? You had to cast it on a party member or dot your target otherwise you're only hitting 2/3 of your target. Tank gets knocked back outta the mob pack? Oh well no damage for the next 3-5 seconds, but thats ok.

Mind Seer is and always has been absolute garbage.

[Apero]

Mind Seer is and always has been absolute garbage.

WotlK and Cata Mind Sear was pretty strong.

Sidenote, Warlocks getting 3 Shards baseline for a smaller ramp up time, when do we start with 60 Insanity?