Let's Talk Fire Mage Trash DPS

[smaktat]

With Mythic+ right around the corner and now that we had some time to experiment, I want to see what everyone is doing for their trash pulls in Mythic dungeons. Similar to Diablo, the hardest part of a Mythic+ dungeon will be the trash mobs so it does become important to know which talents, spell priorities, etc. will benefit us the most in certain scenarios.

I am currently running Conflag, Rune of Power, Flame On, Living Bomb, Cinderstorm. In my artifact weapon I rushed Phoenix Reborn. I am able to stay competitive without using Combustion on trash at 200-300k dps for 4-6 targets per mob. 170-230k for 3-5, and 450k+ on 7+. I am iL 836 with a 47% crit. I have Horn of Valor and static Int/crit World Quest trinkets.

I find this build to be effective, yet I've read others mention Flame Patch might be better than some theory crafters have previously suggested.

Questions for this thread:

What is your go-to dungeon talent spec?
What is your item level and crit % (please do not list just iL)?
What trinkets are you running? What trinkets would you prefer?
What is your typical DPS for: Single target, 3-5 targets, 7+ targets?
What do you believe is the strongest build for trash?

Goal: To have a better understanding of what's working well on trash in Mythic dungeons as a Fire mage.

[TenebrusDH]

FS/RoP/FO/UM/Kindling
I am 846 and have ~49%-51% Crit in combat
I am using an 840 Devilsaur Shock-Baton and an 850 Darkmoon Deck:Hellfire (hence the varying crit%
Depending on the fight/procs/etc. I can be anywhere as low as 200k on high movement ST fights, to 265k With lust on a fairly stationary boss with no real phases. Trash I will between 250k-350k, can be up to 400k+ for more than 7, but that usually doesn't happen.
To be quite honest, I don't change specs while in dungeons, I keep my single target spec and focus priority targets and let ignite do it's auto cleave. and I let other classes that simply do more AoE than me, take care of that.
I believe what I lack in AoE I make up for in priority targets and ST boss damage. Also, since I am going for a high Crit build, I wouldn't be as useful on trash as, say, a Mastery build Mage.

That's just me. Maybe I didn't answer your question right. Lol. Sorry if I didn't.

[Biomega]

I think that talents will vary depending on instance. Two in particular come to mind, Assault on Violet Hold and Maw of Souls - both feature relatively little trash in relatively small packs. Kindling may be a better choice there than Cinderstorm, as you can probably squeeze out a good number of extra Combustions and there's not a ton to hit with Cinderstorm. Most of the other dungeons will probably develop into generous pulls to maximize trash efficiency - here you will likely have enough targets to make Cinderstorm really shine as it plows through 5+ mobs.

The two talents I find are practically non-negotiable are Rune of Power and Flame On. I find it very hard to believe that we'll want any of the alternatives (but I'm happy to be corrected if someone has some specific tech to share).

Row 1, I am just a die-hard fan on Conflagration. However, much of that is because of ease-of-use, cutting down on yet more things to focus on. It is entirely possible that smart use of Firestarter (procing on high HP mobs then switching to burn targets) could be very effective, or that the overall gain from Pyromaniac could come out ahead mathematically in large, long-lived pulls (though Conflagration also gets better there, of course). I am not confident making these calls without math to back them up, so I stick to my initial argument: Conflagration is automatic and requires no mental resources.

Row 2 is all utility, but honestly, Shimmer may just be counted among the above-mentioned non-negotiable talents. It's SO good, and I can't imagine either of the other two being useful outside of specific mechanic cheese (which could very well be desirable for some fights in high M+).

Row 3, no question: RoP. Learn to love it.

Row 4, same with Flame On. Everything revolves around the Combustion cycle, and Flame On is CRITICAL (get it?) for that burst window. Honestly, I think that ability should just be baseline and replaced with a more interesting talent that offers real choice, as Blast Wave does sound interesting but is just nowhere near as good.

Row 5 has the most potential, I feel. Ice Floes is definitely super useful, but often superfluous. It is the go-to choice for this row, but I wouldn't quite say it's the same level of given as some other talents - particularly since the two other choices are CC options that may very well be attractive for certain strategies on high M+. Time will tell, but I would not be surprised to pick Ice Floes here 90% of the time.

Row 6 is a big one. LBomb seems like a winner in most scenarios, but there is still a heated (get it, again?) debate going on as to when exactly we should be using Flame Strike - and that debate will only heat up (...okay I'll stop) more as people acquire Aftershocks. It's possible that we could end up in a spot where Flame Patch + Aftershocks makes Flamestrike a go-to choice for procs on large enough packs, but the exact numbers are still being worked on. Unstable Magic may be a choice for dungeons like two I mentioned in the beginning (AoVH and MoS) which feature trash packs with big single/double mobs primarily.

Row 7 is a two-choice tier. Meteor I think has been written off at this point as cute but strictly worse than either of the two alternatives. But which to pick? This is another debate that has gone past heating up and well into Pyroblast! territory (the final one, I promise). Math remains to be done here as well, but it's definitely a very tricky thing to decide between. Personally, I am #TeamCinderstorm for most dungeons. Pairing it with Combustion on large packs results in truly ludicrous numbers, and even outside of the burn cycle it is a very solid choice for both ST and AoE. That being said, it could very well be that you can synch up many dungeon pulls to a Combustion cycle reduced in CD through Kindling, meaning not only more Combustions but also more effective ones (due to big packs being present). Then again, it could also work out to be a relatively minor gain, as even a non-reduced Combustion could synch up well enough, depending on the dungeon and the group in question.

TL;DR: 75% set or so, and the remainder decided based on group comp and dungeon in question.

[smaktat]

FS/RoP/FO/UM/Kindling
I am 846 and have ~49%-51% Crit in combat
I am using an 840 Devilsaur Shock-Baton and an 850 Darkmoon Deck:Hellfire (hence the varying crit%
Depending on the fight/procs/etc. I can be anywhere as low as 200k on high movement ST fights, to 265k With lust on a fairly stationary boss with no real phases. Trash I will between 250k-350k, can be up to 400k+ for more than 7, but that usually doesn't happen.
To be quite honest, I don't change specs while in dungeons, I keep my single target spec and focus priority targets and let ignite do it's auto cleave. and I let other classes that simply do more AoE than me, take care of that.
I believe what I lack in AoE I make up for in priority targets and ST boss damage. Also, since I am going for a high Crit build, I wouldn't be as useful on trash as, say, a Mastery build Mage.

That's just me. Maybe I didn't answer your question right. Lol. Sorry if I didn't.

That's great actually thanks for your input. Pretty much exactly what I was looking for and then some.

- - - Updated - - -

Row 7 is a two-choice tier. Meteor I think has been written off at this point as cute but strictly worse than either of the two alternatives. But which to pick? This is another debate that has gone past heating up and well into Pyroblast! territory (the final one, I promise). Math remains to be done here as well, but it's definitely a very tricky thing to decide between. Personally, I am #TeamCinderstorm for most dungeons. Pairing it with Combustion on large packs results in truly ludicrous numbers, and even outside of the burn cycle it is a very solid choice for both ST and AoE. That being said, it could very well be that you can synch up many dungeon pulls to a Combustion cycle reduced in CD through Kindling, meaning not only more Combustions but also more effective ones (due to big packs being present). Then again, it could also work out to be a relatively minor gain, as even a non-reduced Combustion could synch up well enough, depending on the dungeon and the group in question.

I think this is where most debates come through. I generally like to say Kindling for single target and CS for multi-target, although both have proved effective when used correctly. I sit at 14,000 AP away from Pyretic Incantation in my Artifact weapon so I can't speak for the ramping crit damage bonus either that I'm sure CS and Kindling both largely benefit from.

[Biomega]

I sit at 14,000 AP away from Pyretic Incantation in my Artifact weapon so I can't speak for the ramping crit damage bonus either that I'm sure CS and Kindling both largely benefit from.

That's definitely part of the reason I implement Cinderstorm into my Combustion cycle.

I agree that this is a big debate. I'm anxious to hear what the math people come up with.

[Deleted]

Sorry if that this is off topic, but when taking cinderstorm in a dungeon, do you still include it in your rotation during a boss fight or is it strictly only worth casting on multiple targets, same goes with living bomb?

[Biomega]

Sorry if that this is off topic, but when taking cinderstorm in a dungeon, do you still include it in your rotation during a boss fight or is it strictly only worth casting on multiple targets, same goes with living bomb?

LB is worth it on 2+ targets. Cinderstorm is always worth it if you hit with at least 4 or so Cinders (and the target has Ignite).