BM vs MM: hitting the target dummy

[Vankrys]

So i went to stormwind to kick some target dummy's ass.

My weapons are

MM: 821 with 16 perks
BM: 814 with 14 perks
I am myself around 834 in MM and 833 in BM. My gear is focused on mastery.

I tried both rotation, MM and BM on a dummy. I think i understand (in theory) both rotations. MM is quite complex to try to maximize the vulnerable debuff uptime but i tried my best. That means delaying marked shot until the last second because it refreshes vulnerable. Also avoiding to cast windblast while vulnerable is up again to maximize its uptime. And lastly, avoid hardcasting aimed shot with no vulnarable up. I managed a good uptime of the vulnerable debuf.

For BM, it is a lot simpler. Priority cast is KC->DB->CS. I stop casting cobra shot below 60 focus (thanks weak aura) and that's it. Both spec used the volley talent.

For both spec; DPS cooldown on CD, no flask or buff. I also avoid hitting any squirrels by sticking close to the dummy so this is pure mono DPS.


Results
Somehow, BM outperform MM by about 15%. (average on many tries). Now my MM rotation may not be perfect, but keep in mind, i was really concentrated on it, in raid situation, with evrything going on, i might not be as concentrated on my rotation. Plus MM suffers from having to move, unlike BM.

Funny thing is i was concentrated as hell on my rotation in MM and a lot more relax, even drinking coffee on the right hand with BM. And like i said my artefact weapon for BM is worse than my MM artefact. I am really surprised that i performed worse in MM than BM on single target.

My question is

Do i do lower DPS in MM because i messed up the rotation or BM really is the superior spec?

[Fayenoor]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lhunt/advanced

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Pottm/advanced

BM is just better?

[Devilyaki]

Sounds like a rotation thing, maybe you are just a better bm hunter :3. But it sound like my problem I had with the class the two specs it gets are ether Boring bm sleeping dps or watch your shit like a hawk mm dps.

[Azortharion]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lhunt/advanced

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Pottm/advanced

BM is just better?

You realize that every single Hunter with half a brain is playing BM right now because it's better for basically every type of content except what actually "matters", which is raiding? Which isn't available?

[Vankrys]

You realize that every single Hunter with half a brain is playing BM right now because it's better for basically every type of content except what actually "matters", which is raiding? Which isn't available?

you're right. I try to focus on single target DPS and what i can achieve with my skill level. Mythic dungeon involves a lot of cleave.

My question is

is it normal that BM outperform MM at around 830 ilevel or is it a problem with my rotation (in a pure mono target scenario)?

[PBitt]

MM scales better with gear, particularly with weapon damage. Your weapons are fairly low, in fact your weapon is lower than your average MM gear by quite a bit which has quite an impact on your results. Artifact traits play a role as well.

Target dummies are a great way to practice your rotation and play with new trinkets and skills and stuff but overall damage output from dummies should not be taken too seriously.

[Azortharion]

This anecdotal testing thing going on is a joke. Did you have Bloodlust? No. Will you have Bloodlust in a real fight? Yeah. Will that matter? Yeah.

Do you have 3 relics? No idea as you decided not to include it.

Were you hitting multiple targets? Of course not.

Were you hitting multiple targets that were spread out? No, not that either.

Are you probably pretty bad at Marksmanship compared to BM? Yeah.

Anyone can run the same kind of testing and get different results.

3:30 fight.
3x relics
840-something iLvl.
19 traits MM
13 traits BM
No Bloodlust
Obviously no AoE of any kind


Before anyone talks about trait levels, realize that Beast Mastery gains like ~1300 DPS going from 13 to 19 traits.

~223k MM
~210k BM

And that shitty test matters just as little as yours. The sims aren't lying as far as I can tell, because I've been paranoid about checking it all the time trying to see if shit lines up. Thankfully, it does, and whatever results a sim produces are going to be true at this point in time.

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Oh, and target dummies never drop below 20% health so Bullseye never gets to take effect, which ends up costing me like 15-20k, perhaps more.

Breakdowns for curious souls:


I genuinely lost the BM one, but if ppl really want it I can do the run again. And I'll probably do 5k more or less damage because that's what happens when you do this kind of stupid dummy testing.

[Vankrys]

MM scales better with gear, particularly with weapon damage. Your weapons are fairly low, in fact your weapon is lower than your average MM gear by quite a bit which has quite an impact on your results. Artifact traits play a role as well.

Target dummies are a great way to practice your rotation and play with new trinkets and skills and stuff but overall damage output from dummies should not be taken too seriously.

i see, thanks for the reply, i will try again when i unlock the 3rd relic socket.

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Oh, and target dummies never drop below 20% health so Bullseye never gets to take effect, which ends up costing me like 15-20k, perhaps more.

right. It's very true, i just didn't know how much of a % this talent accounts for global DPS.

[Azortharion]

Also interestingly, my run is significantly higher than what SimCraft spits out for my gear with Bloodlust removed. On top of that, SimCraft gets the benefit of Bullseye which I obviously don't. Just in case anyone needed proof that simulations aren't perfect robots, it's not difficult to outplay them.

https://puu.sh/r5M5K/df5371c05c.png

Additionally, you can compare the breakdown of damage above to what simcraft spits out:



I won't get into the specifics of numbers because it's all gonna shift with RNG and I might not do so well on a second run, but I did more casts of important stuff than the sim. Some of this is RNG, some of it is definitely not. I can make smarter, more specific decisions (such as playing around my Stormsinger Fulmination Charge trinket, saving my load for when it's at 10 stacks and small stuff like that). There's not as much room for this as BM (as it is much easier to sim perfectly, there isn't as much to fuck up and not as much to excel at).

As you can see, though, it lines up extremely well. Scarily well, in fact. I used my Tirathon's BEtrayal trinket smarter than the sim, so I got more damage out of it than the sim (which just uses it on cd). My Marked Shot did quite a bit less damage than the sim (did about 10% less dmg per castthan the sim when it should be close to equal, so that's worth at least checking out).

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EDIT: Checked the Marked Shot thing, no need to worry. Here's how I know it's tuned correctly in the sim:

A few Marked Shots on a dummy, we're looking for the MINIMUM: 246.734 damage.



Run a sim with all possible variables eliminated, set the sim to just cast sidewinders and marked like I was doing, have it do it for way longer:



Minimum is 246.739, so everything checks out.

So I got less damage out of it than the sim. It's either because of RNG, or it's because the sim played better, hard to tell, but my point is made:

1) Marksmanship definitely does more single-target damage than Beast Mastery, the sims do not lie on this subject, and in-game testing does not exactly contradict it.
2) Insert one billion other reasons why you might prefer Marksmanship as a raiding spec over BM, reasons for which I outline in more detail in the guide.

[Vankrys]

1) Marksmanship definitely does more single-target damage than Beast Mastery, the sims do not lie on this subject, and in-game testing does not exactly contradict it.

I definitely believe you, you are the reference in hunter. Do you have a % value of how, in your testing on how BM is behind MM in single target?

[Deleted]

BM is way behind MM once you have some fairly decent gear...at least from my tests (which include the current legion content).
BM is better at two things:

- questing, in terms of survivability (although MM without LW and with BA is not too bad)
- raid fights (future) that include A LOT of moving around (with AS having a cast time)

For everything else, from single target to dummies and mythic dungeons, MM wins by a HUGE margin.

[Gaaz]

I am a bit confused now. In the theorycrafting thread Effin posted stat effect graphs for damage for all 3 hunter specs, for single, three and 6 targets. Judging from the graphs, unless I seriously misunderstood something, BM actually scales better than MM with all stats like crit, haste, mastery etc, as well as agility. However, that did not take into account weapon damage difference between item levels. My question is, does weapon damage scaling compensate MM for being twice as slow to gain damage from secondary stats? Maybe there is a multiplication of some sorts. Of course there is a possibility that at 4 in the morning my attention is close to zero and I missed something vital.
PS: Nevermind. I think I know what I missed. Scale ranges on the x-axis are different between MM and BM.

[Sartuk]

I am a bit confused now. In the theorycrafting thread Effin posted stat effect graphs for damage for all 3 hunter specs, for single, three and 6 targets. Judging from the graphs, unless I seriously misunderstood something, BM actually scales better than MM with all stats like crit, haste, mastery etc, as well as agility. However, that did not take into account weapon damage difference between item levels. My question is, does weapon damage scaling compensate MM for being twice as slow to gain damage from secondary stats? Maybe there is a multiplication of some sorts. Of course there is a possibility that at 4 in the morning my attention is close to zero and I missed something vital.
PS: Nevermind. I think I know what I missed. Scale ranges on the x-axis are different between MM and BM.

You edited, but just to reiterate: the scaling for the two specs from secondary stats is really, *really* close. BM has a slight advantage with scaling for agility, and Marks has an absurdly high advantage with weapon DPS scaling.

Overall everything's close enough that it's sort of irrelevant to look at when you're comparing the specs. What matters more is the types of encounters we'll be dealing with and how much MM's strengths and BM's strengths will matter. With EM coming up soon, and with anything coming close to intelligent play...the encounters absolutely favor MM to a fairly significant level.

[Deleted]

A

Is MoC better than barrage on single target? I have 873 ilvl weapon (3 relics, 850 and 2x840) with Stormsinger Fulmination Charge which give me 100+% dmg increase on my shots on max stacks. If it is better is it worth swaping in dungeons?

[Nheil]

210k on dummy with BM ? seems incredible to me... I really wanna see your damage detail Azortharion.

Are you using touch of the void?

Got a really similar gear (847, 66% mastery) and i can't reach 200k dps on a 50 million damage fight on dummy.

[Azortharion]

Well, 200k is harder when doing 50 million than 3:30. Touch of the Void was nerfed, so obviously not using that.





Good thing that I write a guide, too.

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Would've done 200k if I had enchanted my neck instead of being cheap.

[Deleted]

Well, 200k is harder when doing 50 million than 3:30. Touch of the Void was nerfed, so obviously not using that.





Good thing that I write a guide, too.

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Would've done 200k if I had enchanted my neck instead of being cheap.

Far more important question: devilsaurier trinket any good?

[nuttz96]

Azor, can you teach me what I am doing wrong? I tried the 50m test 4-5 times and my dps always dip to about 185k always. As far as I know, my focus is never maxed out, and kill command always go out the first frame it comes off cooldown.

Just realize that the screenshot doesn't show DPS, it was 185k. This is also with Way of the Cobra + Killer Cobra.



Is it because my stat is not as optimized that I am doing 12k dps behind you? Using 840 Caged Horror and 840 agi/crit trinket.

Thanks.

[Kissthebaby]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lhunt/advanced

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Pottm/advanced

BM is just better?

LOL this convinced me thanks.

[Deleted]

Btw, does anyone know where i can find a lonely boss dummy ? I want to test mm at 20y+ (naraxas tongue trinket) without any cleave but I really didn't find one :/