No automated group finder for Mythic is a problem.

[Otimus]

because there isn't an argument, first most peoples i know in game care actually 0 about exclusivity this is just a desire of a small minority who unfortunately happen to count among them most streamer and extremely vocal players (and some dev imho).

Never in my life i or anyone i know (even extremely min maxer) had the necessity to bar other peoples fun to feel accomplished, imho the best thing blizzard could do is to implement a slide selector to allow each player to set it's desired difficulties, like the one you have in fallout.

I will at the very least say that having the main focus of an entire content patch (what the content patch is named after) be something that only be done with an organized group is kind of a bummer. It's also kind of weird, because LFR still exists, but they won't make easier versions of dungeons, let alone a dungeon that's going to be the focus of an entire content patch? That's just weird. Hell, I foresee these easier avenues eventually giving far better gear than you'll get in these mythic only dungeons, which just isn't right.

I can deal with Arcway and Court of Stars being mythic only (I pugged Court of Stars, and I'll probably be pugging Arcway in a few days after my next AK upgrade, but I'm probably going to wait to pug the rest of them for the artifact skin after my gear is inflated some more), like a bonus or something, but they REALLY shouldn't lock out the entire focus of a content patch out to the casuals like that. They won't even do that with raids. Like I said, it makes zero sense and seems like a really, really lopsided design.

Like, I'm pretty sure the raid in that patch is going to be in LFR. It will have an easy mode. Why can't the dungeon, too? I guess I'd have a different opinion if the raid was the focus of the patch, and not the dungeon.

[Flurryfang]

because there isn't an argument, first most peoples i know in game care actually 0 about exclusivity this is just a desire of a small minority who unfortunately happen to count among them most streamer and extremely vocal players (and some dev imho).

Never in my life i or anyone i know (even extremely min maxer) had the necessity to bar other peoples fun to feel accomplished, imho the best thing blizzard could do is to implement a slide selector to allow each player to set it's desired difficulties, like the one you have in fallout.

First: "that is not an argument" is not a counterargument. You are again just ignoring my arguments, which is not good for out conversation

2nd: We both know different people then But let me set up a scenario for you then to help understand my point of view:

You play in a semi-hardcore guild in TBC and are so good, that your team is able to kill the first boss in Sunwell on the 2nd week. You are now among a small procentage of players, who are good enough to kill anything in there. You do good in there in the following weeks and clear more content. You have a casual friend, who after hearing your stories about killing Brutallus and seeing Felmyst rise, want to join your raid. He is though not good enough, so you say to him "Get better and we will invite you". That friend then gets better and better, gets more gear and becomes a good player. Try imagining his thoughts when he finally gets invited to Sunwell and you start clearing mobs. This guy has proberly tried to do the instance before with another group and proberly wiped several times on the firsts mob, yet you are now clearing everything like a group of professionals. That experience is proberly gonna knock his socks off, because he is experiencing completly new content all because he became good enough to keep up with your group. Again, ask anybody who has taken this leap and they will tell you how amazing an experience that is.

This scenario is not really happening in the current form of WoW. Unless you are keeping yourself totally up to date with all raiding content, there is a high chance, that the first time you experience a boss, is actually through LFR. This means, that the following experience is not gonna be that amazing, since you are just seeing the same guy, but in new clothes. Better gear is a reward, which is dwarfed when put besides exclusive content.

And again, i am not talking about barring people off from fun, ofcourse people should always have something to do, but i really do believe, that people should have content as a reward for engagement into the game and becoming better at the core gameplay.

[Revamp Man]

No,

No automated group finder for Mythic is a problem-SOLVER.

In most cases players are being judged by their ilvl nowadays. You can get BiS from crafting alone at the moment, so "it being a magic-circle" doesn't apply at the moment.

But i got to admit the OP has a bit of a point; What will happen with ilvl req. in mythics once raids come out? I foresee it being inflated...

blizz has already solved that problem with the mythic+ system

lets say 3 weeks after raids come out little jimmy makes a group for mythic+0 (base mythics) and he says "LFM NEED 840" and like every other group looking for a carry he doesnt just set the ilvl requirement because he cant since his gear is too low and hes looking for a carry

in comes timmy who has an ilvl of 850 an he sees that group

his first thought isnt "i should join that" its actually "why the hell would i join that when mythic+2 will give me upgrades almost every time plus the weekly cache"

theres no incentive for those who outgear mythics to go back to base level

[bufferunderrun]

First: "that is not an argument" is not a counterargument. You are again just ignoring my arguments, which is not good for out conversation

2nd: We both know different people then But let me set up a scenario for you then to help understand my point of view:

You play in a semi-hardcore guild in TBC and are so good, that your team is able to kill the first boss in Sunwell on the 2nd week. You are now among a small procentage of players, who are good enough to kill anything in there. You do good in there in the following weeks and clear more content. You have a casual friend, who after hearing your stories about killing Brutallus and seeing Felmyst rise, want to join your raid. He is though not good enough, so you say to him "Get better and we will invite you". That friend then gets better and better, gets more gear and becomes a good player. Try imagining his thoughts when he finally gets invited to Sunwell and you start clearing mobs. This guy has proberly tried to do the instance before with another group and proberly wiped several times on the firsts mob, yet you are now clearing everything like a group of professionals. That experience is proberly gonna knock his socks off, because he is experiencing completly new content all because he became good enough to keep up with your group. Again, ask anybody who has taken this leap and they will tell you how amazing an experience that is.

This scenario is not really happening in the current form of WoW. Unless you are keeping yourself totally up to date with all raiding content, there is a high chance, that the first time you experience a boss, is actually through LFR. This means, that the following experience is not gonna be that amazing, since you are just seeing the same guy, but in new clothes. Better gear is a reward, which is dwarfed when put besides exclusive content.

And again, i am not talking about barring people off from fun, ofcourse people should always have something to do, but i really do believe, that people should have content as a reward for engagement into the game and becoming better at the core gameplay.

our scenario existed and still exist, there are many many players who put effort and time into becoming better to join a mythic guild, those peoples are the same as before they are not fazed by lfr and ignore it completely and have the same excitement killing mythic archimonde than they had before killing kil'jaeden in sunwell.

mind that this exclusivity argument has been debated since vanilla, first were the 20 man raids, then in tbc were the 10 man and the badge gear etc, and has always been considered as stupid and borderline psychotic.

[cFortyfive]

despite having actually the best reward in game

Out of curiosity what is this reward you seem to be perceiving as the best ?

and has always been considered as stupid and borderline psychotic.

By people with diminished intellectual capabilities that might be the case.

[Flurryfang]

our scenario existed and still exist, there are many many players who put effort and time into becoming better to join a mythic guild, those peoples are the same as before they are not fazed by lfr and ignore it completely and have the same excitement killing mythic archimonde than they had before killing kil'jaeden in sunwell.

mind that this exclusivity argument has been debated since vanilla, first were the 20 man raids, then in tbc were the 10 man and the badge gear etc, and has always been considered as stupid and borderline psychotic.

But that number is a lot lower then before. More and more guild are settleing themself with either normal or heroic raiding, because they either can't find the time to play it or because they don't think they are good enough to do it. While some say this is natural, i say that it is because they don't find the reward in mythic high enough to take the leap up. As i said before, there is still a reward in going more hardcore, but atm, it is only gear and a hardcore experience. Some people see the hardcore experience as the only reward, who they need, but those people are far and few between. Then there is the gear people/ i need more power people and these are quite numerous, but still not a huge amount of the playerbase. I think that by having content be a reward, you could help pull many more people into the mythic playerbase, players who care so much about the WoW universe, that they will actually increase the time they use in the game.

Also, this discussion have been made numerous times and everytime is has ended in a draw/ "let Blizzard do what they want to do" argument. You are not helping yourself look better by saying stuff like stupid and psychotic. You seems so desperate to win something without actual argumenting for it. So say something smart or throw the towel into the ring.

[bufferunderrun]

Out of curiosity what is this reward you seem to be perceiving as the best ?

By people with diminished intellectual capabilities that might be the case.

best i-lvl gear
best chance for upgrade (aka titanforged)
best chance of legendary drop

personalized visual for tier

exclusive mounts
exclusive titles

and the world first competitor often get direct attention from blizzard devs, they talk directly with them get in the first weave of beta/alpha access to new product ecc.

isn't that not enough?


Na the only peoples who feel exclusivity is an issue are insecure guys there are some really nice psychiatric books that describe those problem.

[Lumineus]

Formed my own group, joined a few groups, never had to link achieves just need to make the ilvl requirements, what game are you playing OP? Seems like a completely different game there.

Well, I can't speak for OP, but I can speak for myself. I'm not complaining about now. I'm complaining about in 6mo when I'm trying to do the artifact skin quests on my tenth alt and I need heroic titanforged Nighthold gear to get into a +0 Mythic. If anyone is still even doing +0s in group finder at that point.

[Charge me Doctor]

No, it isn't.
Entitled fools are a problem tho. Both kinds of them. The ones who demand 830+ for mythic dungeons, and the ones who simply refuse to gather a group of non 830+ geared people. Yesterday breezed through black rooks hold with 815 DK tank, 818 druid healer, 840 fire mage, 813 MM hunter and 835 enhancement shaman. Wiped only once because i've fucked up and pulled 3 packs with cinders, derp.

[bufferunderrun]

But that number is a lot lower then before. More and more guild are settleing themself with either normal or heroic raiding, because they either can't find the time to play it or because they don't think they are good enough to do it. While some say this is natural, i say that it is because they don't find the reward in mythic high enough to take the leap up. As i said before, there is still a reward in going more hardcore, but atm, it is only gear and a hardcore experience. Some people see the hardcore experience as the only reward, who they need, but those people are far and few between. Then there is the gear people/ i need more power people and these are quite numerous, but still not a huge amount of the playerbase. I think that by having content be a reward, you could help pull many more people into the mythic playerbase, players who care so much about the WoW universe, that they will actually increase the time they use in the game.

Also, this discussion have been made numerous times and everytime is has ended in a draw/ "let Blizzard do what they want to do" argument. You are not helping yourself look better by saying stuff like stupid and psychotic. You seems so desperate to win something without actual argumenting for it. So say something smart or throw the towel into the ring.

lot lower? you must remember incorrectly the amount of peoples that nowadays try and kill at last the first 2-3 bosses in mythic is about ten time what it was in swp and mythic raiding is way more difficult and polished than before (if you actually are objective and don't count bugged boss or broken class mechanic).

The accessibility that so many hate have actually benefited the mythic raid segment, pouring an endless stream of new blood into it, at this point is clear that this flawed view come from a rose tinted glass attitude, sometimes i think that some peoples who write in this forum never really experienced vanilla or tbc but just have a vague idea formed from some internet legends

oh and just to clarify i'm not desperate i could care less about mythic dungeon i simply ignore them, and i care even more less of how i look on a forum.

[Teaklog]

Because if people won't let him in their group, they will totally join his group.....

If nobody will join his group either, not even the other people in his situation, then maybe he is the problem? Literally just name the group "Learning run" and you will get people. Its not hard. Then once he does that ONCE he will be able to join the achievement crowd.

[cFortyfive]

best i-lvl gear
best chance for upgrade (aka titanforged)
best chance of legendary drop
personalized visual for tier
exclusive mounts
exclusive titles.

there are no exclusive titles in wow aside from rank 1 gladiator, some wotlk titles and the realm best cm time titles.
There are also no exclusive mounts or titles that can't be farmed even solo with little effort at some point or in a group with some more effort.
Highest ilvl gear pieces are available from every source of content the chance of getting them is merely reduced. That said I see some players loot shittons of 850 already and some classes can farm their bis trinkets for this tier in mythic dungeons.
Cosmetics are again also merely gated for a certain amount of time and aren't anything to write home about to begin with unless you'd consider an extra skull or a recolor something incredible. By the time the next tier arrives the previous one already becomes trivial in a full group.
All in all best rewards is absolutely misleading - it's earliest at best.

[Mad_Murdock]

I dont think he means wod or wotlk dungeons. probably cata/bc dungeons. Some mythics are really easy like DHT, others like wardens/Valor are way more difficult. IMO

Well you cant say they are on pair with wod heroics. did not play early wrath, nor pandaria. But saying they are on pair with all old heroics is also silly.

I agree that I wouldn't lump them in with "all old heroics". But it's a bit extreme to say they are only referring to TBC heroics. That's way too far back and if that were true, there would be a demand for CC in the groups. Legion Mythics don't require any CC

I found all week 1&2 Heroics to be tough. Everyone is lowly geared, they don't fully know the fights. I didn't start playing WoD until it was out for 6 weeks. By the time I got to doing Heroics folks already had some raid gear and they didn't seem that bad. So I can't say it's absolutely the same. I can say that there is nothing special about plain Mythics that makes them too tough for que pug groups.

[bufferunderrun]

there are no exclusive titles in wow aside from rank 1 gladiator, some wotlk titles and the realm best cm time titles.
There are also no exclusive mounts or titles that can't be farmed even solo with little effort at some point or in a group with some more effort.
Highest ilvl gear pieces are available from every source of content the chance of getting them is merely reduced. That said I see some players loot shittons of 850 already and some classes can farm their bis trinkets for this tier in mythic dungeons.
Cosmetics are again also merely gated for a certain amount of time and aren't anything to write home about to begin with unless you'd consider an extra skull or a recolor something incredible. By the time the next tier arrives the previous one already becomes trivial in a full group.
All in all best rewards is absolutely misleading - it's earliest at best.

it's best reward compared to anything you can obtain at the same time, do the title will be available on 3 year when legion end? yes that not diminish their value, mount are guarantee drop in current content and become 0,1 when the xpack become obsolete.

As for gear you get the best reward and the highest chance for upgrade again compared to current content, so it's not misleading you get the absolute maximum anyone can get on that tier.

And if we are going to look at the reward mythic raiders nowadays get more than who raided swp back then.

[Deleted]

"Make your own group" is always such great an argument. You can do it to handwave away basically everything. The thing with mythics is, they've pretty much replaced Heroics outside of keystone ones by now. With normals being trash tier and heroics being what normals used to be when hitting max level.

Keystone one's shouldn't be through LFD but there was a reason LFD was introduced to begin with and given mythics have taken the spot of heroics they should be baked into the LFD system.

Exactly this. In fact, this is one difficulty too many. Normals / Heroics / Mythic+ should be it. And all quests should happen outside of mythic dungeons, because this is the special thing for people who are into hardcore dungeons.

[Osmeric]

Ohh i am not only talking about hardcore players, but pretty much all players except the hardcore-casual players. When something is exclusive or have a high bar for entry, it also becomes more attractive. This means, that even though you are not a hardcore player, you want to be one, since they get exclusive content. You want to be use more time on the game and become better, since the reward is very good.

It's attractive in the same way winning the lottery is attractive, or getting high returns from a Ponzi scheme is attractive.

What you skip over is that exclusive content, BY DEFINITION, cannot deliver that reward to all but a minority of players. Otherwise, it fails to be exclusive.

[cFortyfive]

it's best reward compared to anything you can obtain at the same time

Ahh so now we backpedaled at that time. At least slight progress. Sadly instantly a step back as you can attain the exact same piece ilvl wise you get dropped from say xavius mythic on heroic. The odds are just different. You again also conveniently forget how much easier they get to farm even during the addon - not even mentioning that you could possibly do them later on with a whole account in a couple hours like I do for certain rare raid mount drops I never got.
You're last point makes no sense whatsoever given your previous points - at least try to stick to a somewhat consistent argument. Nobody else had access to the content at the time it was current can't get much more rewarding than that.

[Flurryfang]

It's attractive in the same way winning the lottery is attractive, or getting high returns from a Ponzi scheme is attractive.

What you skip over is that exclusive content, BY DEFINITION, cannot deliver that reward to all but a minority of players. Otherwise, it fails to be exclusive.

As i tried to explain before in a previous comment, exclusive content has value for even the players who don't consume/play it. It creates legends, it creates tiers of players and it makes history. As long as something is not impossible (im looking at Rift here), very hard content makes casual people feel like they are playing a some what hardcore game. Surprising enough, people really like to play games, which don't completly feel like child games, so having hard/"mature" content feels good for many people.

So yes, not all people are ever gonna experience exclusive content in its current format by name, but they don't have to, to have a better experience.

[Osmeric]

As i tried to explain before in a previous comment, exclusive content has value for even the players who don't consume/play it.

Yes, that's a common hardcore bullshit talking point. It is ridiculous nonsense. Players are not entertained by other players getting stuff that they themselves won't get. It's at best neutral, and at worst toxic.

The phenomenon you are talking about can persist only as long as a player has the delusional belief that the reward isn't out of reach. But that delusion is inevitably punctured by experience, since (BY DEFINITION) most players won't get these rewards. Soon enough they learn that, and soon enough they get clueful about whether new exclusionary content will exclude them. I think that's what happened in early Cataclysm, to the dismay of the devs: the sheep no longer were fooling themselves into thinking the content would be for them.

[bufferunderrun]

Ahh so now we backpedaled at that time. At least slight progress. Sadly instantly a step back as you can attain the exact same piece ilvl wise you get dropped from say xavius mythic on heroic. The odds are just different. You again also conveniently forget how much easier they get to farm even during the addon - not even mentioning that you could possibly do them later on with a whole account in a couple hours like I do for certain rare raid mount drops I never got.
You're last point makes no sense whatsoever given your previous points - at least try to stick to a somewhat consistent argument. Nobody else had access to the content at the time it was current can't get much more rewarding than that.

Ok our point is as long it has different difficulties then no matter what reward it give it never be satisfying.

You can try all you want to convince me about it being a valid reasoning i would never accept "exclusivity" a good thing.