watched the greymane vs sylvannas cinematic 1 thing confuses me

[Surfd]

Thinking that every character has to forgive the Horde whenever it wrongs them is what I find crazy. You expect Alliance characters to be subscribed to forgiveness. There is only so much a character is can or is willing to endure and forgive.

No Horde character has ever done so much for peace between the Alliance and the Horde as Jaina did. Jaina did more than any other character ever did on bringing these two together. She invested everything into peace and in return lost everything. She was betrayed by such the ideal of peace which she pursued no matter what. Genn was betrayed by the ideal of neutrality aswell; Gilneas was walled off because they wanted to have nothing to do with the conflicts beyond their kingdom. He too was betrayed by a benevolent ideal.

Two of the most benevolent and neutral characters were done this much harm, despite pursuing peace and neutrality for the better part of their lives. You need to understand this and if you really do understand it, you will know why their characters' transformation is only logical. They tried being benevolent, they tried leaving others be, they tried helping others/staying away from them and in return got nothing but tragedy upon tragedy as a result of it.

Sorry, what?

I mean, really, WHAT?

The only reason Graymane was "neutral" was because he abandoned his responsibilities to his alliance, and threw up a giant wall between his kingdom and the rest of the world so that he could hide behind it. And yes, terribly benevolent of you to stand at the top of the wall and MURDER innocent people seeking refuge in your kingdom. Funny that. Greymane is appearently righteous in his persuit of Sylvanas because his Son decided to commit suicide by Arrow, but nobody gives a shit about the hundreds of people who should have a similar right to see Greymane's head on a pike because he is responsible for the death of their family and friends, who's only crime was trying to seek refuge behind the wall. Greymane was a coward, who hid behind his wall, and only crawled out from the rubble and begged for alliance aid after the cataclysm dropped his wall ontop of him. Meanwhile, just think of all the years he sat behind it watching the world go to shit and doing nothing, when he could have helped, instead of cowering behind his wall.

And please, Jaina had LONG ceased being "neutral" by time Garrosh got around to blowing Theramore off the map. Pretending to be greviously hard done by because the warchief at the time finally decided to stopped respecting your front of "neutrality" when you have been hiding behind that neutrality for years while using your city as a waypoint to fuel the war effort of your alliance allies on the continent pretty much smacks of duplicity. Jaina might have had a case if she had actually been neutral, but but by the time MoP rolled around and shit went down, she hadnt been for a long time, and now she is trying to blame everybody but herself for the results of her actions.

[Alixie]

My favorite part of the whole thing is how Genn is willing to damn an entire race because his stupid son wanted to be a hero. I'm not defending Sylvanas' actions, I support her cause but not her methods, but Genn's an asshole and I hope we don't have to see too much more of him.

He saved a race that was going to be enslaved by Sylvannas so she alone can avoid death. She already has Valkyr to raise more undead, so this is purely a selfish goal.

I havnt played a Forsaken since before her vanilla model change, but I find it ironic that her voice clicks were about how being undead is a joyless curse, but she is eager to give this curse to as many people as possible. IIRC, most of whom she zombifies are Alliance, and less Alliance heroes turned psycho Banshee loyalists, (ie Blightcaller), the better.

[Deleted]

Didn't the Forsaken murdered the Refugees on the Wall and not the Gilneans who simple never gave a shit? I'm pretty sure they were killable Mobs back in Classic.
Genns only Crime is that he doesn't take all the Refugees. But you know what? If that would be a reason for justified annihilation of your country, than every western Country except Germany would be fucked.

[Surfd]

Didn't the Forsaken murdered the Refugees on the Wall and not the Gilneans who simple never gave a shit? I'm pretty sure they were killable Mobs back in Classic.

Sure, They were killable mobs, mostly because there were a few quests where you had to go get something that one of them had. There were never any "go kill 10 refugees just cause" quests though. It was usually more of a "that important guy took some important thing when he fled, and we need the thing back. Go find him", kind of quests.

[Xeranath]

Genn's starting to become extremely one dimensional. All this bleating about vengeance really belies any complexity the character can, and should, have.

Little OT but where is the rest of the horde and alliance? Having undead and worgen at every watchtower world quest is all well and good, but I'm getting tired only only having dogs to kill.

[Surfd]

Also, I would love to point out the alliance mentality hypocrisy of Gen being all noble and "benevolent" when hiding behind his wall, when appearently the same thing magically doesn't fly when Thrall and The Orcs abandon an entire continent so they can go find a place to call home and live in peace, yet they are supposed to just suck it up and take it when the alliance follows them halfway around the world because they just cant let shit go.

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Little OT but where is the rest of the horde and alliance? Having undead and worgen at every watchtower world quest is all well and good, but I'm getting tired only only having dogs to kill.

Not sure on that. This is mostly (at the moment) the Sylvanas and Genn show. Word is, both Elf factions will step in in a major way in the upcoming story. As for everybody else, my guess is the Humans / Trolls are probably still in something of a state of shock over the loss of their racial leaders, the Gnomes / Goblins are essentially ignored as usual, the Draenei are probably recovering from the attack on the Exodar, and the Tauren / Dwarves are doing who knows what.

Dont forget, we also suffered a major loss at the Broken Isles, where presumably a hefty chunk of our easily mobilizable forces were severely wounded or wiped out all together, so other then certain key players, we probably wont see a lot of "faction action" until further into the expantion.

[Maxilian]

Genn's starting to become extremely one dimensional. All this bleating about vengeance really belies any complexity the character can, and should, have.

Little OT but where is the rest of the horde and alliance? Having undead and worgen at every watchtower world quest is all well and good, but I'm getting tired only only having dogs to kill.

It looks like the BE and NE forces are in (or will be) in Suramar (at the moment most of the NE forces are in Val'sharah.

[Deleted]

Also, I would love to point out the alliance mentality hypocrisy of Gen being all noble and "benevolent" when hiding behind his wall, when appearently the same thing magically doesn't fly when Thrall and The Orcs abandon an entire continent so they can go find a place to call home and live in peace, yet they are supposed to just suck it up and take it when the alliance follows them halfway around the world because they just cant let shit go.

The Orcs were War Criminals who wanted to commit unprovoked Genocide against humanity and steal their Lands? They slaughtered their way out of the eastern Kingdoms? That's like saying the Nazis who fled to South America are better than some people who only want to be left alone.

[Magnagarde]

Sorry, what?

I mean, really, WHAT?

The only reason Graymane was "neutral" was because he abandoned his responsibilities to his alliance, and threw up a giant wall between his kingdom and the rest of the world so that he could hide behind it.

And this is... wrong? What is the issue with Greymane deciding to wall his kingdom off from the rest of the world? Someone that hides does not mean to attack anyone. The only ones that had the right to object to this are the Gilneans, but they are extremely loyal to their king regardless of what had befallen them.

Wether he was a coward or not is up for the Alliance to decide and they forgave them already. You are pondering about his cowardness when those that were affected by it already had forgiven him. There is absolutely no point in pointing out something that was already resolved.


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And please, Jaina had LONG ceased being "neutral" by time Garrosh got around to blowing Theramore off the map. Pretending to be greviously hard done by because the warchief at the time finally decided to stopped respecting your front of "neutrality" when you have been hiding behind that neutrality for years while using your city as a waypoint to fuel the war effort of your alliance allies on the continent pretty much smacks of duplicity. Jaina might have had a case if she had actually been neutral, but but by the time MoP rolled around and shit went down, she hadnt been for a long time, and now she is trying to blame everybody but herself for the results of her actions.

You need to first understand that nobody in the Horde - except for Thrall - has ever and probably never will do as much good for all of Azeroth as Jaina had done with her committments to fighting the Burning Legion and keeping peace between the Alliance and the Horde.

She doesn't seem to be blaming anyone for her decisions; she simply wants to make them right.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Didn't the Forsaken murdered the Refugees on the Wall and not the Gilneans who simple never gave a shit? I'm pretty sure they were killable Mobs back in Classic.
Genns only Crime is that he doesn't take all the Refugees. But you know what? If that would be a reason for justified annihilation of your country, than every western Country except Germany would be fucked.

The only quests I recall from classic wow involving the wall are a forsaken having you kill a man who killed his wife , or as a warlock killing and stealing the heart of a devout paladin for the succubus spell

[Magnagarde]

And please, Jaina had LONG ceased being "neutral" by time Garrosh got around to blowing Theramore off the map. Pretending to be greviously hard done by because the warchief at the time finally decided to stopped respecting your front of "neutrality" when you have been hiding behind that neutrality for years while using your city as a waypoint to fuel the war effort of your alliance allies on the continent pretty much smacks of duplicity.

The Horde has been doing exactly the same with the Undercity and is still doing it. Even though he despised them, Garrosh still used Undercity for the Horde's military manouvers, despite having no racial or any other similarities other than being enemies with the Alliance.

So now, please take a deep breath and think about it; Jaina had the FI available to her all along, but she never though about taking it and bombing a "Horde capital" off the continent. This is the crucial point of it all; one character never even though about bombing another city populated by not even living beings, but undead, yet this other character that only recently came to Azeroth decided its best to wipe away an entire nation that saved Azeroth from the Burning Legion.

Both Genn and Jaina never harbored hatred for anyone, despite so many conflicting situations that they've been faced with. They were turned into characters that harbor hatred for those that wronged them to such an extent, that forgiving is no longer an option.

Had Jaina bombed a Horde city and had Greymane invaded other kingdoms for no reason and massacred their population, I'd gladly agree with you. What you should think about is how the two races that were wrongedby others could inflict the same amount of pain and suffering on someone else, learning absolutely nothing from their tragedies(the orcs and the undead).

[shonist]

Shhhhh...don't tell anyone, but some people have been known to roll alts just to see the story

/secret shame

yes, im doing it today.
fuck, now im feel spoiled.

[Combatbutler]

The only quests I recall from classic wow involving the wall are a forsaken having you kill a man who killed his wife , or as a warlock killing and stealing the heart of a devout paladin for the succubus spell

It is mentioned the forsaken intercepted the fleeing population of southshore, while they tried to escape to Arathi, none made it. Only those fleeing to fenris isle survived the onslaught.

That is all I remember in terms of forsaken killing refugees.

[Friendlyimmolation]

It is mentioned the forsaken intercepted the fleeing population of southshore, while they tried to escape to Arathi, none made it. Only those fleeing to fenris isle survived the onslaught.

I was talking about Classic WoW. Yea the guys that tried to run off to Arathi got fucked.

[Bigby]

Sorry, what?

I mean, really, WHAT?

The only reason Graymane was "neutral" was because he abandoned his responsibilities to his alliance, and threw up a giant wall between his kingdom and the rest of the world so that he could hide behind it. And yes, terribly benevolent of you to stand at the top of the wall and MURDER innocent people seeking refuge in your kingdom. Funny that. Greymane is appearently righteous in his persuit of Sylvanas because his Son decided to commit suicide by Arrow, but nobody gives a shit about the hundreds of people who should have a similar right to see Greymane's head on a pike because he is responsible for the death of their family and friends, who's only crime was trying to seek refuge behind the wall. Greymane was a coward, who hid behind his wall, and only crawled out from the rubble and begged for alliance aid after the cataclysm dropped his wall ontop of him. Meanwhile, just think of all the years he sat behind it watching the world go to shit and doing nothing, when he could have helped, instead of cowering behind his wall.

That's total headcanon.

At the time of Vanilla - when the refugees showed up - Gilneas was already suffering under its civil war AND not-werewolf apocalypse. There wasn't anybody to open the gates because they were too busy fighting for their lives. Remember that even back in Vanilla there was NO hint at life in Gilneas, not even soldiers manning the wall to bar them entry. We know from the short story that the Gilneans had soldiers holding back the Scourge from beyond the gates (remember that Gilneas' territory was retconned into including Pyrewood and Ambermill), which is when the Worgen were summoned. By the time the area was safe enough for refugees to actually arrive at the Greymane Wall the country within had already collapsed into chaos and there was nobody left that far north to actually order nor open the gates up to them. The refugees might have THOUGHT they were being left to die, when really there was nobody home to actually hear them.

Also, fighting for your lives against an unstoppable undead army that has already wiped out three more powerful kingdoms =/= unjustified in fighting a foreign and unprovoked aggressor into your then neutral kingdom.

And please, Jaina had LONG ceased being "neutral" by time Garrosh got around to blowing Theramore off the map. Pretending to be greviously hard done by because the warchief at the time finally decided to stopped respecting your front of "neutrality" when you have been hiding behind that neutrality for years while using your city as a waypoint to fuel the war effort of your alliance allies on the continent pretty much smacks of duplicity. Jaina might have had a case if she had actually been neutral, but but by the time MoP rolled around and shit went down, she hadnt been for a long time, and now she is trying to blame everybody but herself for the results of her actions.

Horde attacked the Night Elves, Jaina allows Alliance troops to funnel reinforcements via the Barrens in order to relieve pressure on their allies. Theramore was never neutral - it was, after all, an Alliance kingdom - but it was an advocate for peace. When one of your allies is attacked unprovoked however you are perfectly - and actually duty bound - to respond and lend them aid, over the aggressor.

[Deleted]

The only quests I recall from classic wow involving the wall are a forsaken having you kill a man who killed his wife , or as a warlock killing and stealing the heart of a devout paladin for the succubus spell

Okay, I'm really not sure anymore. Never really played Forsaken back in the old World, but the Gilneans certainly didn't killed them. And don't letting refugees in your country is not a crime, contrary to what Angela Merkel claims. Gilneas is a souvereign Country and had like every other country the right to chose what migrants they let in. Considering what Lordaeronians are doing as Forsaken, it was probably better for Gilneas, this people are just a bunch of Criminals and would endanger the superior gilnean gene pool.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Okay, I'm really not sure anymore. Never really played Forsaken back in the old World, but the Gilneans certainly didn't killed them. And don't letting refugees in your country is not a crime, contrary to what Angela Merkel claims. Gilneas is a souvereign Country and had like every other country the right to chose what migrants they let in. Considering what Lordaeronians are doing as Forsaken, it was probably better for Gilneas, this people are just a bunch of Criminals and would endanger the superior gilnean gene pool.

it was mostly Garrosh playing on their emotions, afterall creating a common enemy among the Forsaken just made it easier for Garrosh to put his plan into effect. I'm sure many Forsaken blamed Gilnaes for letting them die, no matter how irrational it may have sounded.

[Deleted]

it was mostly Garrosh playing on their emotions, afterall creating a common enemy among the Forsaken just made it easier for Garrosh to put his plan into effect. I'm sure many Forsaken blamed Gilnaes for letting them die, no matter how irrational it may have sounded.

But their still responsible for what they did. Genn and the Gilneans have every right to hate the Forsaken and their Vengeance is still just after all the Forsaken did to them.

And I hope at least you understand my Point when I'm saying that stopping Sylvanas from capturing Eyir was not even the best way for Genn to get his Vengeance but also the only sane thing as a human to do. Every Human entrusting the Power of creating unlimited Val'kyr to Sylvans is a pure moron.

[Friendlyimmolation]

But their still responsible for what they did. Genn and the Gilneans have every right to hate the Forsaken and their Vengeance is still just after all the Forsaken did to them.

And I hope at least you understand my Point when I'm saying that stopping Sylvanas from capturing Eyir was not even the best way for Genn to get his Vengeance but also the only sane thing as a human to do. Every Human entrusting the Power of creating unlimited Val'kyr to Sylvans is a pure moron.

Wasn't disagreeing with you.

[Deleted]

Wasn't disagreeing with you.

Some Idiot was and if you are not disagreeing with me on this topic, I can consider myself objectively right. Not saying that it wouldn't be possible that she wouldn't misuse the Power of the Val'kyr and instead only using it to grand her people immortality without further turning humans into Undead, but considering her past actions it wouldn't have been the wisest choice to bet on that possibility.

Storywise, it was like I said in a other Thread before the best that could happened to Sylvanas storywise. Now she has yet again a worthy Archenemy again, someone who is her equal, a worthy opponent. And she and the forsaken have a reason to hate Greymane and the Gilneans now. Greymane stole their future, he took something from them that can never be replaced again, the only thing they could hoped for since I don't believe that they are believing in the possibility to cure undeath.

I want to be honest, I also would love to see Greymane fighting Sylvanas in melee in his human form once. I think his fighting style as human could be a really good counter to Sylvanas in melee. He's using a Rapier, a elegant and fast weapon that requires, compared to other weapons, minimalistic movements while having a great range. Sylvanas on the other Hand uses sabers, a type of weapon that may be a great choice for cuts and strikes, but is the least suitable sword for thrusting. That would mean while Sylvanas is by far faster than Human Genn, he could counter this with the more subtile moves fencing overs, which could allow him to keep up with her.