Organ Donor: 'Yes Unless' - Netherlands

[Deleted]

I've always been split on these types of 'opt-out' not 'opt-in' laws.

By default more lives will be saved, which is clearly a pro. But there will definitely be a social stigma to saying no now that you have to go out of your way to do so. In my state it's a checkbox and that's it. If something like this passed, not only would you have to vocalize your opposition, you'd also have to potentially defend your stance from anyone who may have an issue with it.

From a societal standpoint, I definitely recognize that there's more pro than con. But from a personal standpoint, I would not want to have to voice my opposition to being a donor (incase it wasn't obvious, I'm not a donor).

It's a good thing. I would not want my organs to save an useless person, when it can save, say, a teacher or a doctor.

[Deleted]

It's a good thing. I would not want my organs to save an useless person, when it can save, say, a teacher or a doctor.

You don't get a say in who gets your organs. It's either a string free altruistic act or it's not. There is no in between.
There have been plenty of people, in the UK for example, who objected against alcoholics getting transplants and the official response from the NHS was that if you don't like it, don't register for it.


I'm personally not a donor nor do I plan on being one, as there have been plenty of cases where doctors intentionally declared someone clinically dead just to harvest their organs, despite the fact that there would have been a chance for recovery.
That and the fact that you get no say as to who gets your organs ultimately made me say no.
I don't give a shit if people don't agree or like it.

For example, doctors can, in fact, declare you “dead” even when your heart is still beating and you still have brain activity. And they often do. This is how a lot of the organ harvesting actually gets done: patients that are on the verge of death (but not yet actually dead) are simply “declared” dead, then their organs are quickly removed, killing them for good.
It’s a crime that takes place every day in America, where U.S. hospitals have been caught over and over again engaging in black market organ trafficking.

[Deleted]

Except that is not how it works.
It's impossible.

The hell it is. There are plenty of documented cases where doctors, especially in the US were pressured to declare people brain dead so they could harvest their organs. Just because you're naive doesn't mean it's not true and it never happens.

http://nypost.com/2012/09/26/organs-...ain-dead-suit/

[Knslyr]

But you don't have the option.
It's not up to you to decide who gets to live or die.
The system doesn't, and should not, care who you want to help. It's about saving lifes.

Leech? Do you work at health-care? No, so that makes you just as much of a leech as anyone else.

Well, he does have the option to "let everyone die" by not donating at all.

Because it goes against a shitton of laws and the medical oath.
It's not up to a doctor to decide whose life is worth more.

It still wouldn't be up to the doctor, it would be the system that decides that organ donors have a higher priority. The Doctor would continue to do his job as per usual.
And if a system like that would have been voted through the laws would obviously be adjusted for it if it is one that says that prioritizing organ donators are illegal.

Found two cases where they did or are trying to implent this.
First UK, where there have been talks about it in an attempt to attract more organ donors. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/heal...ansplants.html

Then Isreal

A new organ transplant law in Israel, which gives priority in organ allocation to candidates who in various ways support organ donation, has resulted in a significant increase in organ donation in 2011. We provide an ethical analysis of the new law.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22914426

[Vash The Stampede]

The hell it is. There are plenty of documented cases where doctors, especially in the US were pressured to declare people brain dead so they could harvest their organs. Just because you're naive doesn't mean it's not true and it never happens.

http://nypost.com/2012/09/26/organs-...ain-dead-suit/

It's called a conflict of interest. Lots of people need organs, and lots of people aren't dying, or if they are they aren't an organ donor. Right now people are shitting bricks over self driving cars because it could stop a lot of car accidents, which is like a major source of organs. So when you have someone who is a organ donor in the hospital, they will have to choose between your life or your organs. That's why I'm proud not to be an organ donor, cause I want doctors to always choose for me to live.

[Akylios]

But you don't have the option.
It's not up to you to decide who gets to live or die.
The system doesn't, and should not, care who you want to help. It's about saving lifes.

But I see it as a fault with the system. I genuinely don't want leeches to have my organs (i.e. eligible donors who decide not to register, yet expect the system to step in to save them). Someone who doesn't give a shit if others die needlessly from organ failure, while simultaneously expecting strangers to save their worthless lives if the need arises. I don't care if those kind of people die from organ failure, as I see them as pretty lousy people to begin with. It's the 'I sure hope someone fucking dies so I get their organs, but no fucking way I'll ever donate my own organs to help save anyone else's life' crowd.

I want to save someone's life whose life is worth saving. It would really suck to know my organs went to save the life of a non-donor leech. I genuinely don't want to help save their lives with my organs. I really, really don't understand why I can't mandate this. I'm a registered donor of my own accord.

Leech? Do you work at health-care? No, so that makes you just as much of a leech as anyone else.

We've got a socialized hospital system over here. Since I'm far, far above median income I pay more into our hospitals than most of my countrymen. I also donate blood and I'm signed up as a registered donor. I'm also not overweight and I'm not a smoker. I don't do drugs or any other stupid thing either. So I'd say I've done my part and don't fit into any of the typical 'leech' groups. I haven't had to go to a doctor or a hospital for 30 years or so. Yet I've paid into the system for most of that time.

[Deleted]

But I see it as a fault with the system. I genuinely don't want leeches to have my organs (i.e. eligible donors who decide not to register, yet expect the system to step in to save them). Someone who doesn't give a shit if others die needlessly from organ failure, while simultaneously expecting strangers to save their worthless lives if the need arises. I don't care if those kind of people die from organ failure, as I see them as pretty lousy people to begin with. It's the 'I sure hope someone fucking dies so I get their organs, but no fucking way I'll ever donate my own organs to help save anyone else's life' crowd.

I want to save someone's life whose life is worth saving. It would really suck to know my organs went to save the life of a non-donor leech. I genuinely don't want to help save their lives with my organs. I really, really don't understand why I can't mandate this. I'm a registered donor of my own accord.

You don't and never will get a say in who gets your organs. This is a universal condition and if you don't like it, then don't donate.
It is as simple as that.

We've got a socialized hospital system over here. Since I'm far, far above median income I pay more into our hospitals than most of my countrymen. I also donate blood and I'm signed up as a registered donor. I'm also not overweight and I'm not a smoker. I don't do drugs or any other stupid thing either. So I'd say I've done my part and don't fit into any of the typical 'leech' groups. I haven't had to go to a doctor or a hospital for 30 years or so. Yet I've paid into the system for most of that time.

I think you're missing the point of altruism. It's not your job to judge others and their decisions.
Do you expect some sort of medal or badge of honour, or some sort of pedestal to sit on above the rest of us "average leeches"?

[Akylios]

I think you're missing the point of altruism. It's not your job to judge others and their decisions. Do you expect some sort of medal or badge of honour, or some sort of pedestal to sit on above the rest of us "average leeches"?

Don't expect anything at all in return. I just don't care whether (eligible) non-donors die from organ failure. I also don't want to save their lives with my organs. They quite honestly don't deserve their lives being saved by anonymous donors. It's obscenely greedy of them to expect it, seeing as they themselves flat out refuse to do others this same favor.

It's being a leech on the system. Expecting to be able to take something out, but refusing to put anything in. How else could I possibly describe them?

[Vash The Stampede]

Someone who doesn't give a shit if others die needlessly from organ failure, while simultaneously expecting strangers to save their worthless lives if the need arises. I don't care if those kind of people die from organ failure, as I see them as pretty lousy people to begin with. It's the 'I sure hope someone fucking dies so I get their organs, but no fucking way I'll ever donate my own organs to help save anyone else's life' crowd.

I'm on the boat where, "I sure hope they can use stem cells to grow organs so we don't have to butcher people for their meat". Cause seriously, that's what we're doing. I like my burger like how I like my organs, and that's grown in a laboratory.

I want to save someone's life whose life is worth saving. It would really suck to know my organs went to save the life of a non-donor leech. I genuinely don't want to help save their lives with my organs. I really, really don't understand why I can't mandate this. I'm a registered donor of my own accord.

I'm on the boat where I'd like to save everyone's life, including the assholes. Again, by growing organs. Even though you don't live in America, what we do here effects the world, including Stem Cell research. Which by the way, Bush had prevented during his presidency.



Because of this, we're still in the stone ages where we harvest organs to keep people alive. Because organs are in such high demand, people are resorted to scrupulous methods to acquire them. Some take place in hospitals and some take place in Mexico.

[Fencers]

I just don't want to donate my organs then science comes up with some way to live forever or something. I'd be cool with people taking my body/parts if science comes up with a way to transfer my conscious mind into a new body- organic or robot.

I feel like science needs to step it up on the robotics front. Not just self driving cars, which I am baffled why we are not doing that, but like robots in your house doing stuff. And robot labor.

Really, we need robots before I am totally comfortable with giving away kidneys willy-nilly. There is always a chance I can become a Necron.

[Grishnaar]

So it's like they can use whichever organ, unless you specifically say "I don't want to give my organs when I die"?

If so, great.

I can see some of you have problems what happens to your body after you die. I personally can't see where's the problem, but as long as we all have an option, it's good.

No sense in making it bigger than it is.

They will use all, more lives saved. YOu don't want to give organs? Just say so (and sign?) and that's it

[Dug]

Makes sense to me. Opt out if you really want to but I don't see why you would, once you're dead who the hell cares what organs they take? If it means somebody can go on living or have a better quality of life then by all means

[Akylios]

You could focus on your own part in the process and pay less attention to what other people do.

Shit like that is exactly why some are against this new change, they believe it to be a slippery slope to forcing people to be an organ donor.
Good job! It's opinions like yours that contribute to laws like this being stopped.

How so? I'm simply saying, if you're not ready to contribute to the system (assuming you're eligible), then why do you think you should be able to benefit from it? No one would be forcing anyone to become a part of the system.

It's like refusing to pay towards a welfare system, yet demand it's your given right to claim all the benefits said welfare system offers. Everyone else should simply be paying for you. Sadly those kind of people exist, but you have to be absolutely blind not to notice how ridiculous it is.

As the system is now we (e.g.) have people going 'Oh no, I'm definitely too good to contribute, but I expect all of those who actually do contribute to service me when the need arises'. It's madness.

[Acelius]

The "unless" part shouldn't be a thing. Everyone should be an organ donor no matter what.

[Twix]

No thanks. I'll keep my organs.

[Akylios]

Because that would be telling people to give up their organs or else we will let them die if they need organs.
There are a lot of (constitutional) laws that explain why that is wrong.

But again: Keep your ridiculous opinion if you want, it only pushes people to vote against ANY change in the system.

But you don't contribute to the organ donor system.

Should I expect to get my hands on Shell's pension fund system, even when I've never worked for them and haven't contributed anything to it? Should I expect insurance companies to cover my health care costs, if I have never paid for an insurance?

Why do you think (eligible) non-donors deserve donor organs? Why the hell do you demand the laws protect your right to be a leech? Taking out of the system, without ever wanting to contribute? Actually, why the hell do you even want to be such a person? How can you watch yourself in the mirror and say 'I fucking deserve some donor's organs simply because I feel like I deserve them, but no fucking way will I ever try to save a random person's life in the same way'.

That's just disgusting. Feel free not to be a donor, but you really shouldn't expect to get jack shit out of the system then. I sure as hell wouldn't want my organs saving your life, even though I'm a registered donor. I should be able to have that choice, my right should be valued higher than your demand to be a leech. Why should I care if you die, when you don't care whether I die?

[Idoru]

The "unless" part shouldn't be a thing. Everyone should be an organ donor no matter what.

Considering what my body went through during my cancer treatment I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want anything harvested from my corpse.

[Acelius]

Considering what my body went through during my cancer treatment I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want anything harvested from my corpse.

That should be up to the doctors to decide in my opinion.

[Idoru]

That should be up to the doctors to decide in my opinion.

So "unless" should be a thing, right?

[Acelius]

So "unless" should be a thing, right?

You're right, in that case "unless" should be a thing. It should not be up to the individual though.