yes, and I also think Star elves would have been better. But I think these people here are making it more confusing than it is, trying to impose what they want rather than what they are shown. WoW doesn't have dark elves, it just has night elves, and it seems there are several versions of them, the latest addition being the nightborne elves.
Maybe it's like this here because these fans get very attached to their tropes and their races and factions either. Loving and hating and digging into each other, very rudely sometimes I've noticed. I just ignore mostly.
it makes sense that the night elves are star and moon focused as you see these bodies in the night, and off course, any times spent amongst the nightborne in Suramar or the night elves and you see that heaven bound celestial focus.
Last edited by Beloren; 2016-09-18 at 04:49 PM.
I think none of them should have been called Night Elves, or at least the original name should have just been elves... The Dorei?
The current Night Elves should be more Moonish, Moon Elves or Luna'Dorei. -Moonwells
The Blood Elves and High Elves are more Sun Elves and get their appropriate name. -Sunwell
The Nightborne spend more time studying the stars and have the Night Well, so they should be called Star Elves or Nightborne fits. -Nightwell
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As someone who mained an Orc since Vanilla, I've never felt as an Orc, I had my time in the spotlight. People complain about SoO and WoD being all about Orcs, but it didn't do anything for Orc players. I didn't enjoy killing Orcs in Siege of Orgrimmar, I didn't enjoy killing Orcs throughout an entire Expansion either.
I never got that neutral Orc faction that both Alliance and Horde had to work together with to defeat a baddy. Examples would be Argent Crusade(Heavily Human) Cenarion Circle in Firelands(Heavily Night Elves), Isle of Thunder which was Blood Elves/Humans, to name the most prominent ones. Not until WoD when we got the Frostwolves, but we were killing Orcs the entire time which easily cancelled it out. And it was only for Horde.
It doesn't bother me much though, the game was made on the fact that Orcs are bad, Humans are good. I readily enjoy any content that Blood Elves get or Forsaken, though they never get to be the heroes like Humans or Night Elves...
we are still on this? Where do you think I got these explanations? Alpha/beta testers, Wowpedia, Blizzard website, Blizzard interviews and presentations - I don't think anything I have said has been my speculation they've all been derived from source or players that made sense to me - after my overly generously positive view of the night elves year before last, and my efforts concerning night elf and troll origin - I stopped speculating and decided from then on I would go exactly where the developers and the experts were showing. I am not trying to make night elves or nightborne anything that they're not, as you well know I think the night elves are rubbish - what a let down and wasted opportunity, I may like them but I do not care for them like I once did - you just like arguing. I've seen your point of view, I know what you're saying, but you don't know see what I've been saying, I've not been pointing out what has come into my head, I've been pointing out what I've seen and observed and what has been remarked. I am not the source, you guys say things, I see, and if I agree I use it. There was a very good poster on the alpha forums, he may have been a blizzard employee or just a good fan, that wrote extremely well on the topic - but I have a nose for night elf stuff, so whether you agree with me or not, I try to say almost entirely on what I read and see presented, not what I want it to be. - I learnt that lesson.
If I say something, I literally am reading off a source whether book, page or in-game, interview, video on related stuff. You see how much I write? I think henceforce, I shall just present quotations to you when you start off one. If you decide to twist them to prove you're right, then go on, kid yourself into thinking you're 100% objective and infallible.
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Other way round
but that is not enough for some people. I mean - interview, panel, chronicles, in-game, the presentation and display, it seems ridiculous that I'm even having this argument, it's like the more I try to prove the point, the more he argues. He strikes me as one of those people who has to have the last word and one has to agree with his view or he'll just not stop.
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Exactly, I get the impression of this too, but he's so rude about it - insulting too. I've even gone as far as to tell him what he is saying is right to an extent in the context he is saying it, but he is just being bullishly stubborn of what I say, I think because it's me that's saying. He responds like that to me.. and it sours and detracts from a topic. If he wants to continue this discussion, he can private message me.
An opinion, even one supported by facts and evidence, does not become a fact just because it has support. The vast majority of what we deal with here in the Lore forums are matters of opinion and personal observation - which everyone has a right to have for their own, and can support or argue to the best of their abilities. If you disagree with someone's opinion by all means say so, and present your own evidence, but once both positions have been stated and their merits and flaws outlined I think it best to cease further argument and/or allow other people to participate in support or with their own take.
After a certain point the back and forth of an argument just becomes noise and makes it more difficult for other people to participate. I think that point has been reached here. Let's see what other people have to say.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
It's not me that's saying, this is what we are been shown! It's right there in the game, it's in the description, it's plainly obvious. You know how some smart people or rather people who think they are smart, for all their airs can miss things right in front of their noses, and have the gall to insult someone else for merely pointing it out.Now what RAvenmoon is doing, and I don't disagree with him, is he is stating that Nightborne Elf is still an elf of the night or in short, a night elf (rather than write elf of the night all the time or ancient Night elf, or nocturnal elf, you can shorten that to night elf beacause that is what the term also means. It isn't exclusive to the name of the group called the Night ELves, it's also just short for elf of the night also descriptive. This is what you've both beeen arguing over, and it makes little difference to anything except perhaps egos? They will always be Nightborne elves, not Night Elves, and continue to be elves of the night or night elves, and they willl continue to be the Ancient Night Elves in new form. So you've basically being arguing over a technicality... which is taking nerdism to a new level.
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very very well said, people don't have to go on to insult another person over it, it's distasteful when that happens, and a bit souring, but it does happen when people are passionate. We all interpret facts and presentations differently, and sometimes we are influenced greatly by what someone else observes or presents. Is it the whole truth ? Not necessarily but it is a side to it. Afterall, we are all trying to understand something we enjoy better, and it's because we enjoy it that we write about it.
I've tried apologizing privately so at least the tone calms down a bit, we can be friendly in our disagreements, I've tried to just say nothing, but I'm finding it hard, so help me God. I must do better.
ANyway, well said, afterall, this is lore on fantasy, not even the devs I can assure you have that much intrinsic detail mapped out, but fans will go there sometimes, it's not worth the time I've spent writing about it though, because the more I write, the more he argues. So I should just stop, I must have said lets agree to disagree at least 5 times, but somehow keep getting drawn back in
Don't the Shal'dorei consider themselves Night Elves both in-game and in the lore? As a subset they're called the Nightborne or Shal'dorei, but from both current and 7.1 information they seem to consider both the Kal'dorei (playable Night Elves) and Quel'dorei/Sin'dorei as offshoots and dilutions of their own noble blood. If you asked one of the Shal'dorei nobility I'd imagine they would scoff at the notion that the current Kal'dorei were even Night Elves - scraping in the dirt wild things, and living like savages in the trees.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
All the elves have the same ancestors and originate from the same race. Simply apply Darwin's theory on them and observe the way their environment changed them over time. Even the cinematic which is narrated by Thalyssra clearly states they were Night Elves before being turned into the Nightborne due to the barrier and as they feasted on the Nightwell.
I don't understand how such a simple and easily graspable concept managed to spin into such a lenghty discussion, when its all crystal clear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_NzxWGrVaY
".. my city was radiant, the jewel of the Night Elf empire."
Last edited by Magnagarde; 2016-09-18 at 05:51 PM.
That's the impression I get, and many others, which is why I have seen it said that they are more night elven than the night elves themselves. The statement is also qualified too - because their existence is more night based, more star/moon orientated, they seem the more extreme version of night elvennism than the current night elves are.. and this is is no surprise, because they are the original night elves too, which unlike the ones we know, still have continued on in the original Kal'dorei way - as I've seen others say. I don't remember if it was Wowiki, official forums or wowpedia, or here, but someone said they moved further "night" in the penduluum. I mean Nightborne - it's in the name as has been said in this topic - Nightborne elves, Night Elves - seems like nightborne elves is a more hardcore degree of night elf.
Last edited by Raetary; 2016-09-18 at 06:09 PM.
Formerly known as Arafal
you know that's not what I'm disputing, or contesting at all, I'm loving that, and enjoying it, their change from night elf to nightborne is not a step further way from night elvenness, it made them more night elven, more elves of the night, darker, more night. I love that. they alone remained originally Kal'dorei, that arcane night elven empire - which is what I actually loved most about the night elves anyway. While the other group, the Hyjal survived changed to a life without magic, they did not, but unlike the Shend'ralar were noble, shrugging off Azshara's madness, rebelling against her and repelling the demons, good arcane night elves, the good part of that amazing Night elven empire they described. Blizzard just made them even more so that level of night elvenness. THis is what I'm dancing and celebrating and enjoying, to the extent I changed my avatar. THis is what I've wanted, this is proper night elvenness in my opinion. Not that the current night elves aren't, they are a version of it, the vigil version = and that's what's called Night Elf to most people, original night elf is called nightborne elf which is like night elf extreme or deeper night elf - as others have pointed out. I love it. I'm not in denial, or disagreement at all.
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well that's what's sad, one person says A, the others AB. Person 2 says about AB: "It's not A at all, it's AB". But person 1 says, but A is in AB, in fact AB is the core of A, it's A modified, you don't have AB without A, and the reply is another lengthy discussion on how AB is not A - and it's utterly pointless. AB is not A, but AB is from A and part of the A group. THe only reason you add NIght to night elven is because of the night focus, and that is also there in nightborne and is in the name as well. One person is pointing out the connection, the other person is denying it.
My conclusion, he simply didn't like how happy I was at seeing the nightborne and happy in their night elvenness and has gone out of the way to make it sound like I mean they're the same and refusing to see the simplicity of the whole thing. You know when some people observe someone is really happy about something, and they just hate that, so try to ruin it for them by sometimes the most mundane or pointless nag. He's been trying to point out to me that nightborne and night elves are not the same, I've acknowledged that and agreed with that from the very start, and yet here we still are. No it's not enough that their not the same, somehow there is no night elvenness in them because they are not night elves I'm like.. wtf? That's not the case, and that's not what I was saying.
So every time I respond to him, it's as sif I'm trying to say Night elves are nightborne - so I specify what I mean as I've seen it described and as I understand it, yest nightborne are not the kal'dorei night elevs (the vigil night elves, the alliance night elves, the northern kalimdor night elves) but they are still night elven - this is the original night elven (anceint night elven, kal'dorei night elven) - .. and so it goes on, to no avail. Analogy, typology you name it, given, but no, he brings up the point again as if it wasn't understood, as if one is trying to deny, and just not for a second pausing to see what is actually been said here. And I can't help but conclude, the contention is nothing to do with the facts, or the topic, it's actually with me. It's me he has a problem with , what about me? my personality or my like for the night elves? nightborne? or my enjoying the whole night elvenness of the whole thing. and so he has just gone on a rant rampage.
Last edited by ravenmoon; 2016-09-18 at 09:06 PM.
Last edited by Rhlor; 2016-09-18 at 06:32 PM.