Tankier Caster vs. Mobile Caster

[Draxtor]

Blizzard has said time in and time out that they would like Warlocks to be the "tanky" caster while casters like mage be the "mobile caster." This inherently puts Warlocks at a disadvantage when dealing with mechanics in a raiding (SPECIFICALLY RAIDING, I DO NOT PVP ENOUGH TO MAKE STATEMENTS BASED ON IT) environment.

To speak very generally, raiding mechanics can more or less be split into two categories: avoidable and unavoidable. Things like raid wide pulses from the boss are unavoidable, circles the boss puts under the raid are avoidable. You get the idea. Typically those unavoidable mechanics are not the mechanics to wipe a raid, as they are unavoidable. A healer's job is to heal the unavoidable damage such as mechanics the boss does that hits everyone and the bosses melee swings, and a dps and tanks job is to minimize that damage while doing as much damage or taking the least damage as possible, respectively.

This is where the core flaw in the "tanky caster" comes into play. Because Blizzard has provided less tools for the tanky caster to avoid those mechanics, they are either forced to take that mechanics or be penalized for avoiding it. The mobile caster has to avoid that avoidable mechanic, as they will take comparably more damage than the tanky caster, so they are provided tools that either entirely negate that mechanic or avoid it. Since Blizzard likes to compare us to mages, I'll use them as an example: Blink and Ice Block are very powerful tools. Being able to instantly avoid a mechanic or negate the damage entirely. While Warlocks have tools such as Soul Leech and Dark Pact, all these serve to do is mitigate that damage.

Mitigate is the key word. Warlock's "tankiness" only serves to mitigate that damage. We do not have the tools provided baseline to avoid these mechanics, only to assist in mitigating the damage. In a progression environment where taking the least amount of damage as possible is desirable, what does that tanky caster bring over the mobile caster? One has tools to avoid mechanics, while the other has tools in reducing the amount of damage they take (or they can choose to avoid the mechanics, but are punished much more so because of the limited mobility). So while Warlocks will take less unavoidable damage than mages, they are either forced to take more avoidable damage or be penalized for avoiding those mechanics.

On a side note, all the mechanics in a raid environment generally don't allow "tanking through it" as they either silence/one shot kill you/permanent ground effects. More than likely you're going to have to move out of it anyways. But thats a different QQ for a different day.

This "tanky caster" focus is flawed. It's okay to have key distinctions of classes to differentiate them, but making an entire class built around one thing is bad design.

[Soisoisoi]

You're assuming they aren't balanced around mobility too, though - they are. (or at least, are aiming to be). i.e. You do more damage on a target you are hitting than a "mobile caster", but have to stop DPSing for longer than they do, where they catch up.

It's essentially the same as Casters vs Melee in PvP. In general, casters play kite the melee and are able to do full damage when not on top of the target. Melee are doing zero damage when not at the target, and thus do more damage when the DO get to the target. The higher the mobility, the less damage they deal when actually hitting the target.

With that said, for PvE, you don't generally need that much mobility. You do stuff like re-apply a DoT, or use a procc instant cast ability, whilst moving out of the swirlies on the floor. You aren't doing nothing at all. If there is more than a couple in a row, then even the mobile casters are hit by it (exception being the current state of Arcane Mages, even I don't know wtf they thought with that). I haven't looked into Lock since Legion hit, but one example would be (old) Shadow Priests, you'd save your Mindspike procc until you were moving, when they hit their 2nd stack, or before they would expire. Same with a Frost Mage's Ice Lance, I believe.

[pies1]

Apparently you missed the memo about not wanting locks to be mobile nor tanky as evidenced by the talent reshuffle

[Deleted]

It's essentially the same as Casters vs Melee in PvP. In general, casters play kite the melee and are able to do full damage when not on top of the target. Melee are doing zero damage when not at the target, and thus do more damage when the DO get to the target. The higher the mobility, the less damage they deal when actually hitting the target.

And yet Monks and Dhs have the highest mobility and dmg yet so this logic flawed allthough we havnt seen any number changes yet so maybe just maybe it will change but most likley not.

[Gaidax]

Dark Pact being literally half to full of your HP on one min CD is very underestimated.

A lot of mechanics that make you move or sidestep do not hit even close to your full HP, meaning Dark Pact will already allow you to block it especially with Unending Resolve combo.

In short, tanking caster has a lot of merit and we will be indeed be able to tank quite a few things while others scramble and run.

Will we be able to tank EVERYTHING? No, but somehow claiming that having what amounts to one million HP plus shield on 1 min CD is not going to allow you to tank some stuff which requires movement otherwise is silly.

Maybe your claim can be that they can reinforce this further which may be okay, but saying we don't have tools to avoid avoidable mechanics through sheer tankiness is wrong.

I mean, if you have some area nuke that does 800k damage hit to you, but get absorbed by Dark Pact, it's pretty much avoided in my book. Same with random little ground targeted nukes, if it hits you for 300k but is fully absorbed by Soul Leech then it is just as much avoided as some mage blinking away.

I actually really dig this tanky caster thing and would wish them to further reinforce it, but at some point it may become question of balance where all this tankiness will be put into mitigating special raid mechanics instead of absorbing casual avoidable stuff. I think they could safely extend reduced avoidance perk to Warlocks like give baseline 30% avoidance and this would be all really.

[toothreaper]

I agree with the OP.
I personally use Dark Pact for incoming raid damage that "cannot be avoided" for example the AOE damage from Xul'horac or the fire from Iskar, but in a raid environment you need mobility to avoid/help in avoiding stuff like the Seething Corruption in the last phase of Mythic Archimonde.. extra tankiness wont help there.

Personally, I'd like to see Burning Rush as a baseline or at least swap with a talent in T3 [Mortal Coil maybe?].

[Deleted]

It's essentially the same as Casters vs Melee in PvP. In general, casters play kite the melee and are able to do full damage when not on top of the target. Melee are doing zero damage when not at the target, and thus do more damage when the DO get to the target. The higher the mobility, the less damage they deal when actually hitting the target.

I get your attempt at a comparison, but this statement doesn't work for Legion. The only classes that can somewhat kite in PvP are hunters and mages. The rest cannot.
Maybe we'll get back to that point, where it should be, but currently you have melee sitting on you for days and are even better at kiting than ranged if they want to. I'm looking at windwalkers and rogues especially.

[Jessicka]

Being tankier does nothing to help with the 'stack and spread' type mechanics that are prevalent in raiding. The point of those is that your failure to move will kill other people, not necessarily just yourself.

Let's go back to MoP, where KJC inhibited Warlocks with a slow - this was specifically changed because it was doing more harm to other members of the raid group than it was the Warlock using it.

The whole dynamic is a PvP conception, and that's why PvP comparisons and explanations are immediately drawn to explain it. It's certainly something they could have used the PvP trees to reinforce the differentiation, and there it would be fine. Less so in the PvE game.

[Deleted]

-snip-

The problem is that a lot of avoidable mechanics should be avoided even if they did 0 damage to you. Why? Because they may stun you, or they damage the raid, or the boss heals from it, or you lose 90% haste, etc. Add to that the scaling in mythic+, and you are left with very few situations where warlock tankiness is anything more than some quality of life for your healers.

I might be wrong, but I'm definitely not convinced yet that being the tanky caster is going to be any good.

[Deleted]

Dark Pact being literally half to full of your HP on one min CD is very underestimated.

A lot of mechanics that make you move or sidestep do not hit even close to your full HP, meaning Dark Pact will already allow you to block it especially with Unending Resolve combo.

In short, tanking caster has a lot of merit and we will be indeed be able to tank quite a few things while others scramble and run.

Will we be able to tank EVERYTHING? No, but somehow claiming that having what amounts to one million HP plus shield on 1 min CD is not going to allow you to tank some stuff which requires movement otherwise is silly.

Maybe your claim can be that they can reinforce this further which may be okay, but saying we don't have tools to avoid avoidable mechanics through sheer tankiness is wrong.

I mean, if you have some area nuke that does 800k damage hit to you, but get absorbed by Dark Pact, it's pretty much avoided in my book. Same with random little ground targeted nukes, if it hits you for 300k but is fully absorbed by Soul Leech then it is just as much avoided as some mage blinking away.

I actually really dig this tanky caster thing and would wish them to further reinforce it, but at some point it may become question of balance where all this tankiness will be put into mitigating special raid mechanics instead of absorbing casual avoidable stuff. I think they could safely extend reduced avoidance perk to Warlocks like give baseline 30% avoidance and this would be all really.

Agreed that it's being underestimated, but in general and especially in mythic raids, these circles of badness do too much damage anyway OR they do AoE damage to the raid OR they leave permanent effects on the ground OR they CC you in a way that makes you want to move anyway.

I mean, if this is not the case for Legion raids, I'm all for it. But if it is? What good is it to be tanky? Saving healer mana on occation?
At least we'll get the opportunity to pick Demonic Circle, which I like. Although it can be pretty situational.

[Gaidax]

The problem is that a lot of avoidable mechanics should be avoided even if they did 0 damage to you. Why? Because they may stun you, or they damage the raid, or the boss heals from it, or you lose 90% haste, etc. Add to that the scaling in mythic+, and you are left with very few situations where warlock tankiness is anything more than some quality of life for your healers.

I might be wrong, but I'm definitely not convinced yet that being the tanky caster is going to be any good.

And a lot of avoidable mechanics do not? I understand some may always default and go for the worst possible outcome, but it one would be objective - then it is clear that A LOT of mechanics that deal damage to player... well... just do that - deal damage to player no strings attached.

[Deleted]

And a lot of avoidable mechanics do not? I understand some may always default and go for the worst possible outcome, but it one would be objective - then it is clear that A LOT of mechanics that deal damage to player... well... just do that - deal damage to player no strings attached.

I agree, many mechanics actually are tankable as a warlock and i also dig the tanky caster type too so i am not complaining. I think most ppl whine because theres this: To tank mechanics you have to know actually how much dmg they do, what type of mechanic is this etc and many people dont yet. If you are a mage for example you dont think "will this kill me?" you just avoid stuff. As a warlock you must have the knowledge before hand "Am i able to tank this?" or " i could tank this in Heroic, can i tank this in Mythic too?" .
Many people dont bother with knowing all the spells in dungeons so they just go by reflex and when they see bad stuff they avoid it, when they could just stay there and keep dpsing.

just my 2 cents

[Jessicka]

I agree, many mechanics actually are tankable as a warlock and i also dig the tanky caster type too so i am not complaining. I think most ppl whine because theres this: To tank mechanics you have to know actually how much dmg they do, what type of mechanic is this etc and many people dont yet. If you are a mage for example you dont think "will this kill me?" you just avoid stuff. As a warlock you must have the knowledge before hand "Am i able to tank this?" or " i could tank this in Heroic, can i tank this in Mythic too?" .
Many people dont bother with knowing all the spells in dungeons so they just go by reflex and when they see bad stuff they avoid it, when they could just stay there and keep dpsing.

just my 2 cents

This is also an important issue. Being tanky is not meaning we stop taking damage, just that we can take a little more. I actually think I tanked a lot more mechanics with Evanescence on Mage than soaked them with Warlock 'because I could' as it were. It's not entirely reliable in that you can soak stuff at 100%, but can you soak it at 75 or 50?

[Deleted]

I agree, many mechanics actually are tankable as a warlock and i also dig the tanky caster type too so i am not complaining. I think most ppl whine because theres this: To tank mechanics you have to know actually how much dmg they do, what type of mechanic is this etc and many people dont yet. If you are a mage for example you dont think "will this kill me?" you just avoid stuff. As a warlock you must have the knowledge before hand "Am i able to tank this?" or " i could tank this in Heroic, can i tank this in Mythic too?" .
Many people dont bother with knowing all the spells in dungeons so they just go by reflex and when they see bad stuff they avoid it, when they could just stay there and keep dpsing.

just my 2 cents

Sure, in heroic and mythic dungeons. Come back in a few weeks when it has been tested out some more in mythic raids and mythic+.

As a hunter and mage you also have to know what you can iceblock / feign death, and so on. Most secondary effects appear in raids (maybe mythic only), and being able to tank the damage won't save you from the secondary effects. Emerald Nightmare, for example, has a bunch of stuff that is put on the ground, and if you don't move out of it, no amount of tankiness will save you or your raid. Demonic Circle can possibly be useful to get out of it, but it has the inherent issue of preplacement, which can screw you over if something landed on the place you put the circle. Blink is just way better.

Sidenote: This isn't a massive issue for me, my biggest gripe is probably more with Blizzard trying to make something work that is very likely never going to work. As long as avoidable stuff (Which is what matters) can have secondary effects that are worse than the damage dealt, it simply won't work well. It is going to be a bit easier on healers, and you will likely die a little less or perhaps be the last man standing, but in my opinion that pales in comparison to always having a way out of sticky situations.

[Novakhoro]

And yet Monks and Dhs have the highest mobility and dmg yet so this logic flawed allthough we havnt seen any number changes yet so maybe just maybe it will change but most likley not.

This type of stuff is the fuel for blizzard's knee jerky reaction. People like you see a DH or WW burst for insane amounts of DPS on trash and cry for that its so unfair when they get rekt outside of CD windows and on ST. The nerfs to both WW and DH are great in my opinion but to clarify the have the highest *trash* damage

[Baconeggcheese]

I got made fun of when playing my spriest alt, one of my healing guildies said "its very obvious you're a warlock main" which was in reference to the fact that I just stand in everything, because on my lock I genuinely don't even realize a lot of mechanics even do any tangible amount of dmg since almost all - to all if it gets mitigated and when I'm playing my spriest I stand in things and take significantly more damage.

I joked around about one of my mage guildies because when a mechanic is thrown at us his kneejerk reaction was to move / iceblock where mine was to stand there and test the waters. We both do these things at an almost subconscious level because we've been playing our respective classes for so many years.

[Deleted]

> let's make warlocks tanky casters (pre legion promise)
> Legion comes out and warlocks are a little bit tanky, but not super tanky
> Blizzard nerfs warlocks tankyness
> Now warlocks are neither mobile, uselful, good damage dealers nor tanky
> trollface.jpg

[Deleted]

And yet Monks and Dhs have the highest mobility and dmg yet so this logic flawed allthough we havnt seen any number changes yet so maybe just maybe it will change but most likley not.

What? How is the logic flawed? The logic perfectly legit, just poorly executed.

[Gaidax]

I got made fun of when playing my spriest alt, one of my healing guildies said "its very obvious you're a warlock main" which was in reference to the fact that I just stand in everything, because on my lock I genuinely don't even realize a lot of mechanics even do any tangible amount of dmg since almost all - to all if it gets mitigated and when I'm playing my spriest I stand in things and take significantly more damage.

I joked around about one of my mage guildies because when a mechanic is thrown at us his kneejerk reaction was to move / iceblock where mine was to stand there and test the waters. We both do these things at an almost subconscious level because we've been playing our respective classes for so many years.

Yes, same. I think many warlocks just don't realize this simple fact that we always used to absorb and block a lot of shit passively simply because of our tankiness. We really absorb and reduce a lot of shit and people do not realize how much even.

Maybe that's why it is so underappreciated as it seems here.

[Soisoisoi]

And yet Monks and Dhs have the highest mobility and dmg yet so this logic flawed allthough we havnt seen any number changes yet so maybe just maybe it will change but most likley not.

I agree Monks and DH are overtuned currently, but you can still get away from them via roots just as any melee, and it's at that point where the ranged advantage comes in. A ranged can still be doing their damage in a root, a melee can't.

They definitely need looking into though, but DH is a weird one. If you can avoid their attacks in Meta (Kite, CC, Evasion, Parry, Block etc), and CC their Blur, they just die. They literally have no defensives or heals. I probably have this a bit easier than most classes though being a Rogue. Just Evasion/Blind their Meta, stun through Blur, free kill.

I get your attempt at a comparison, but this statement doesn't work for Legion. The only classes that can somewhat kite in PvP are hunters and mages. The rest cannot.
Maybe we'll get back to that point, where it should be, but currently you have melee sitting on you for days and are even better at kiting than ranged if they want to. I'm looking at windwalkers and rogues especially.

Windwalkers I can agree with, but Rogues don't really have the mobility when not actually on a target already. If they are close to you, they are on you, but if you get out of their 15y Shadowstrike range then you can stay away from them, it's basically the same as WW Monk's Rushing Tigerpalm PvP talent but it's 5y extra vs a slow. If they aren't Sub then you can just waddle away.

Like I said though, tuning definitely needs looking at if mobility stays this high.