Tulsa Polic Shoot Unarmed Black Man with Hands Up.

[Deleted]

Tell me a scenario other than the axle breaking how you end up in the middle of the road? And if you did, why you wouldn't have your emergency flashers on, especially since you're in the middle of the road outside your car... Please continue to ignore the obvious.

Sounds like you don't know shit about cars.

I did study and work with cars, so I know a fair deal. Not an expert, but just enough to know that there is multiple reasons that can happen. Why he had the emergenc flashers on, that I dont know, your guess is good as mine. But hey, if you think you deserve to be executed for that, I guess you are lucky to be in the US.

[PACOX]

People who make excuses for totalitarian polices are the same ones who never find themselves one the receiving end of it.

[petej0]

I did study and work with cars, so I know a fair deal. Not an expert, but just enough to know that there is multiple reasons that can happen. Why he had the emergenc flashers on, that I dont know, your guess is good as mine. But hey, if you think you deserve to be executed for that, I guess you are lucky to be in the US.

Why do people keep saying this? It isnt as if they saw him in the middle of the road and said "You arent supposed to be in the middle of the road, how dare you!" and then shot him. Nobody gets "executed" by the police for general purpose. There is always a reason, in most cases it was from lack of cooperation AND doing something that was deemed threatening to the police.

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People who make excuses for totalitarian polices are the same ones who never find themselves one the receiving end of it.

It isnt about making excuses, it is about cooperation. There was no reason for this guy to not cooperate. Yet he didnt, and it caused him to be a victim. If my car breaks down on the road, I dont expect to get shot because when the police approach, I am not going to be belligerent or whatever. So when they say "Ok, just sit right here while I call this in" I have no reason NOT to sit down and relax.

[zenkai]

I did study and work with cars, so I know a fair deal. Not an expert, but just enough to know that there is multiple reasons that can happen. Why he had the emergenc flashers on, that I dont know, your guess is good as mine. But hey, if you think you deserve to be executed for that, I guess you are lucky to be in the US.

No where did I say they deserve to be executed, if you're going to argue at least be honest.

[Deleted]

Why do people keep saying this? It isnt as if they saw him in the middle of the road and said "You arent supposed to be in the middle of the road, how dare you!" and then shot him. Nobody gets "executed" by the police for general purpose. There is always a reason, in most cases it was from lack of cooperation AND doing something that was deemed threatening to the police.

Lack of cooperation aint a death sentence, maybe in North Korea but not here. Ticket or whatever, sure, but getting killed? Thats crazy.

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No where did I say they deserve to be executed, if you're going to argue at least be honest.

Cause you have tried to justify the entire thing cause the freaking car is in the middle of the road.

[PizzaSHARK]

You know that NOW...They didnt know that at the time. And defying orders to (potentially) arm yourself, or flee putting others in harm, does warrant some type of force.

I don't think he's arguing against that. Non-lethal force was warranted, but maybe not ideal. Lethal force was completely uncalled for. He was not an immediate danger to himself or anyone around him.

[Taneras]

I don't think he's arguing against that. Non-lethal force was warranted, but maybe not ideal. Lethal force was completely uncalled for. He was not an immediate danger to himself or anyone around him.

Rewatch the video, at the 28 second mark you can see his right arm drop down, as the helicopter pans around you can see his hand infront of his white shirt, about waist level. His arm remains down until the 34 second mark, possibly longer but we can't tell because the vehicle/trees are in the way. By the 38 second mark he's starting to fall.

If police have guns and tazers drawn, and someone is ignoring police instruction and reaching around their waste, isn't that enough for police to reasonable suspect he might be reaching for a weapon?

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Cause you have tried to justify the entire thing cause the freaking car is in the middle of the road.

And turns out he was partially right.

Two 911 calls brought officers to the scene around 7:30 p.m. Friday.
The first came from a woman who said an abandoned vehicle was blocking the street and a man was running away, warning that it was going to blow up.
"Somebody left their vehicle running in the middle of the street with their doors wide open," the caller said. "The doors are open, the vehicle is still running. It's an SUV. It's in the middle of the street, it's blocking traffic."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/us/okl...lice-shooting/

For those of you who immediately assumed this was just a normal traffic stop, despite numerous officers responding with their guns drawn and even a helicopter being moved into the area shame on you. If you watch the video long enough, not even 20 seconds after the shot was fired, the camera pans out and there were a total of 5 cop cars parked by the SUV. Nothing routine about this police reaction. You can't tell me this is how Tulsa PD reacts to traffic stops.

There was nothing wrong with asking more about the situation, which is what zenkai was doing. There is something entirely wrong with jumping to the conclusions you want to when there's almost no evidence in.

[PACOX]

It isnt about making excuses, it is about cooperation. There was no reason for this guy to not cooperate. Yet he didnt, and it caused him to be a victim. If my car breaks down on the road, I dont expect to get shot because when the police approach, I am not going to be belligerent or whatever. So when they say "Ok, just sit right here while I call this in" I have no reason NOT to sit down and relax.

You said it in your post, your car breaks down, you don't expect to get shot by the police. If fact you don't expect the police to come at your with guns and tasers. Being non-compliant is not an excuse to shoot a suspect, that's not what does guns are. A lot more people would be less angry had he simply been tasted for walking back to the car. And yet he didn't even get the car door open, even if that is what he was doing, before being gunned down. Even buddy in the helicopter was shocked at the man being shot.

Officers are trained to deal with non-compliant people because are non-compliant for any number of reasons. Maybe they are stressed and not really hearing the commands of the officer, maybe their are on drugs and need detox, maybe they feel the need to explain the situation or just want to be argumentative, maybe they have some medical disability or handicap that is causing a communication problem. Either way you don't shoot someone unless there is a clear and immediate threat the life of the officer or those around them. Not "we'll if he walks away from me a gun could appear out of thin air", there needs to be an immediate threat.

Just saying "well he probably would be alive had he just listened" doesn't address the issue of police misconduct. It excuses it. Makes it seem acceptable. Killing someone isn't the form of police misconduct, it's just the ultimate expression of it.

[alexkeren]

You need cause to justify that. If you don't have cause, it's an unlawful order.

For instance, if I'm sitting on a bench eating a sandwich, and a cop says "Hey you, hands up", I should give him a look and keep eating my sandwich. And if I DO comply just to hope it's over, I should be filing a complaint with his precinct and getting his ass canned for abusing his authority like that.

They need cause to detain you. To have you show your hands does not require cause.

It is also a crime, generally a misdemeanor, to disobey a direct order from a police officer.

So by not complying you on your own have escalated the situation, they can now arrest you and further non-compliance bumps it up to the felony of resisting arrest.

If on the other hand you comply and offer no further info other than your name and ID you have the upper hand in both criminal and civil courts all without escalating the situation further.

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1. So 4-5 cops hanging around and not one of them bothered to detain or cuff Cutcher at any time? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he wasn't being arrested at any point during this as those police officers could have easily overtaken him. If you find that him walking away is resisting arrest he would first need to be getting arrested in the first place.

2. Stop Resisting seems to be the catch-all for police committing violence on unarmed citizens. Somehow yelling about compliance seems to justify killing people in their eyes.

3. Stop looking at it from an emotional point of view and look at it from a logical point of view then. Cutcher was clearly out numbered and could have been taken peacefully at any time during his walk back to his car. Instead we have a bunch of cops standing with their thumbs in their asses up until the tasing and shooting.

4. This is a weak argument. If stuff like this has a chance to happen at all when the sheer numbers are on the side of the police it's an issue with their training and not the individual who isn't even being arrested in the first place.

Yes, look at it logically.

The extra police came in because of the initial non-compliance to the first responders.

Please tell me exactly where the police were just standing around with their thumbs up their asses, clearly they were containing and ordering him to comply.

He was on drugs, I'd like to see you try to take somebody down who is on drugs. There's plenty of videos you can find on the net of scrawny arsed drug addled people requiring multiple people to control them.

Finally, he made the threatening move of reaching into his car. If the police waited to see him get his hands back out of the car before drawing on him it'd be too late for at least two of the police officers. That doesn't mean the shooting is justified, especially as there was no waiting to see what effect the taser had on him. However, it's widely known that Glocks misfire pretty darned easily.

[Captain N]

Yes, look at it logically.

The extra police came in because of the initial non-compliance to the first responders.

Please tell me exactly where the police were just standing around with their thumbs up their asses, clearly they were containing and ordering him to comply.

He was on drugs, I'd like to see you try to take somebody down who is on drugs. There's plenty of videos you can find on the net of scrawny arsed drug addled people requiring multiple people to control them.

Finally, he made the threatening move of reaching into his car. If the police waited to see him get his hands back out of the car before drawing on him it'd be too late for at least two of the police officers. That doesn't mean the shooting is justified, especially as there was no waiting to see what effect the taser had on him. However, it's widely known that Glocks misfire pretty darned easily.

Can you show me where it says these other police officers were called in for the non-compliance? I mean based on your assessment that Contempt of Cop is a misdemeanor in certain jurisdictions (Not in Oklahoma) they should have easily been able to place him under arrest. Unfortunately that's not the case, and Cutcher was never under arrest until we came to the Stop Resisting part....How does one resist arrest if they were never placed under arrest to begin with?

Other than someone claiming that Cutcher looked like he was on drugs is there some sort of evidence provided by the police or the coroner to support such a claim?

How does one reach into a car that has both the windows rolled up and the doors closed? Even the video clearly shows blood on the windows after the shooting. A shooting that once more took place after the guy was already Tazed and presented no real threat to Officer Shelby.

[TrumpIsPresident]

IRREVERENT DETAILS
-Man is Black.
-Car was in road.
-Tasers exist.
-Feelings.

RELEVANT DETAIL
-Man ignored police orders.
-Man reached into, or tried to enter, vehicle.
-Man was possibly on drugs.

[Taneras]

Can you show me where it says these other police officers were called in for the non-compliance?

http://www.kjrh.com/news/timeline-tp...olved-shooting

7:42:43 p.m. - Dispatch recording has Shelby saying, "[inaudible] traffic, I've got a subject that won't show me his hands."

7:42:45 p.m. - Dispatch called for 10-63 (dangerous situation, emergency radio traffic) at 2300 E. 36 St. N.

7:42:54 p.m. - Dash camera video shows Officer S. Dunn leaving a police parking area and driving with lights and sirens. He is following another patrol unit.

7:42:17 p.m. - Dispatch recording shows Charlie 305 responding to support Shelby.

they should have easily been able to place him under arrest. Unfortunately that's not the case, and Cutcher was never under arrest until we came to the Stop Resisting part....How does one resist arrest if they were never placed under arrest to begin with?

That's the issue with being a cop, had they tazed him before he reached his vehicle he couldn't have posed a threat to them but the general public would have considered that too heavy handed. They took it light, and let him walk where he wanted to, unfortunately it appears he took that freedom too far and got next to his vehicle and continued to refuse to cooperate. He may have placed himself in a situation where the cops thought he was a risk to their safety, which may have prompted their reaction. The cops say he attempted to get into his vehicle, the video does show an arm down at his waist level. He might be reaching for the door handle, or be reaching around his waist band. I don't know, but neither are a good idea when police have their guns drawn on you telling you to keep your hands in the air. Because they didn't stop him soon enough, he was allowed to place himself in a very bad situation.

How does one reach into a car that has both the windows rolled up and the doors closed? Even the video clearly shows blood on the windows after the shooting.

I agree, perhaps it should be attempting to get into his car.

A shooting that once more took place after the guy was already Tazed and presented no real threat to Officer Shelby.

We've already been over this, we don't know how quickly the shot was fired after the tazer was fired. Was it a half second? Three seconds? There's a big difference between a half second and three seconds in this situation.

[McFuu]

1. Yeah they choked out Eric Garner and we can see that entire video of Cutcher with his hands in the air. You don't get to play "What If" games. You have to show me where he was being arrested for to use the resisting arrest argument you used earlier in the thread. Otherwise you're simply saying it's OK to bully a citizen for non-compliance. Your deflection is weak.

2. It has everything to do with justification. Just as so many posters including yourself have done. If guy just did what the police asked him he would still be alive. So once again you're justifying someone be bullied by law enforcement without any evidence that supports him being arrested in the first place.

3. He had his hands in the air despite the police claiming before the video was released that he did not comply at all with their demands.

“He refused to follow commands given by the officers,” MacKenzie told the AP. “They continued to talk to him, he continued not to listen and follow any commands.”

However, helicopter footage obtained and published by the Tulsa World shows Crutcher had his hands up the entire time during his fatal encounter with responding officers. In the helicopter footage, a police officer is heard saying, “That looks like a bad dude, too. Probably on something.”

4. There's always more than one officer on the scene when detaining someone. The same as it is nowadays when someone is pulled over. You almost always see a second car behind them just in case something goes south.

I don't think you realize being detained and arrested are 2 separate things. If you resist being detained, you will be arrested. It's not like there is time to reset a situation with a belligerent suspect that isn't complying with being detained, and complies once he is told he is being arrested.

[IIamaKing]

I see a man ignoring police commands (to stop I assume) and then reaching into his car.

Maybe, JUST maybe, if he had stopped as he was certainly instructed, this would not have happened.

[Taneras]

I don't think you realize being detained and arrested are 2 separate things. If you resist being detained, you will be arrested. It's not like there is time to reset a situation with a belligerent suspect that isn't complying with being detained, and complies once he is told he is being arrested.

That is a very important distinction that people need to realize. Police can keep you at the scene and not place you under arrest while they sort things out. That doesn't mean you will be arrested, or will be let go. It means you have to stay put until they can make heads or tails of the situation.

The 911 call that was placed seemed serious, an SUV blocking the road with the doors open and someone running away saying that its going to blow up.

Two 911 calls brought officers to the scene about 7:30 p.m. Friday.
The first came from a woman who said an abandoned vehicle was blocking the street and a man was running away, warning that it was going to blow up.
"Somebody left their vehicle running in the middle of the street with their doors wide open," the caller said. "The doors are open, the vehicle is still running. It's an SUV. It's in the middle of the street, it's blocking traffic."

- http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/us/okl...lice-shooting/

Not saying the guy was on drugs, but if what the witness reported was true, and he was running away from his SUV scream that its about to blow up, he might not have been in his right state of mind.

[Captain N]

http://www.kjrh.com/news/timeline-tp...olved-shooting

So we have two minutes before the video starts rolling where we have Shelby claiming that Cutcher wasn't showing his hands....

Yet the Helicopter Pilot makes a comment in your own link that he has his hands up and is following orders...

They also make a comment that a tazer was used at 7:44:13 and the Cutcher was on the ground and that shots were fired just seven seconds later.... So yeah he was of no threat by way of your own link.

This whole timeline seems full of holes since the first two minutes are just the audio between Shelby and Dispatch. In fact at 7:42 she claimed it was a Dangerous Situation....so are you telling me that in 90 seconds Cutcher went from raving lunatic to calm person with hands in the air?

I don't think you realize being detained and arrested are 2 separate things. If you resist being detained, you will be arrested. It's not like there is time to reset a situation with a belligerent suspect that isn't complying with being detained, and complies once he is told he is being arrested.

Only there's no proof to him being detained either. All we have is Officer Shelby's audio with dispatch claiming he won't show his hands and then Officer Tyler being dispatched to a dangerous situation. Nowhere in any article does it say that Cutcher was being detained or arrested...Everything says that Shelby was pointing her gun at the man for failure to comply.

[McFuu]

That is a very important distinction that people need to realize. Police can keep you at the scene and not place you under arrest while they sort things out. That doesn't mean you will be arrested, or will be let go. It means you have to stay put until they can make heads or tails of the situation.

The 911 call that was placed seemed serious, an SUV blocking the road with the doors open and someone running away saying that its going to blow up.



- http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/us/okl...lice-shooting/

Not saying the guy was on drugs, but if what the witness reported was true, and he was running away from his SUV scream that its about to blow up, he might not have been in his right state of mind.

With a 911 call placed talking about an exploding vehicle, it's almost a guarantee that everyone within eye shot of the scene will be questioned and possibility detained. This also likely explains why they didn't provide first aid for the man. If they are going to a call that sounds like there may be explosives on scene, they aren't going touch these main suspect on scene. Especially after the weekend we just had up here in NJ/NY with the multiple bomb dets.

[Taneras]

So we have two minutes before the video starts rolling where we have Shelby claiming that Cutcher wasn't showing his hands....

Yet the Helicopter Pilot makes a comment in your own link that he has his hands up and is following orders...

And? As you said there was roughly a 2 minute gap. Is it hard to believe that someone won't listen to a female police officer, then start to, minutes later, once they hear several sirens approaching and hear a helicopter over head?

They also make a comment that a tazer was used at 7:44:13 and the Cutcher was on the ground and that shots were fired just seven seconds later.... So yeah he was of no threat by way of your own link.

Cops don't report shots fired as they're shooting their gun. The seven second difference between him falling to the ground and the call in of shots fired isn't a representation of the time span between being tazed and being shot.

This whole timeline seems full of holes since the first two minutes are just the audio between Shelby and Dispatch. In fact at 7:42 she claimed it was a Dangerous Situation....so are you telling me that in 90 seconds Cutcher went from raving lunatic to calm person with hands in the air?

The helicopter's time and the dashboard camera's time don't seem to be synced up exactly which accounts for some of the fuzziness with the second's reported. I didn't mean this to be an exact retelling of the events, I posted it to show you that dispatch did call for more officers on the scene due to noncompliance.

Moreover, unless "raving lunatic" was actually a description Shelby used to describe Crutcher, being that over dramatic doesn't help your case.

[Captain N]

And? As you said there was roughly a 2 minute gap. Is it hard to believe that someone won't listen to a female police officer, then start to, minutes later, once they hear several sirens approaching and hear a helicopter over head?



Cops don't report shots fired as they're shooting their gun. The seven second difference between him falling to the ground and the call in of shots fired isn't a representation of the time span between being tazed and being shot.



The helicopter's time and the dashboard camera's time don't seem to be synced up exactly which accounts for some of the fuzziness with the second's reported. I didn't mean this to be an exact retelling of the events, I posted it to show you that dispatch did call for more officers on the scene.

1. Its your link. It shows the time she called in that Cutcher wasn't showing his hands and then when Tyler, Dunn, and the other officer showed up. So we have nearly two minutes where Shelby claims that Cutcher was non-compliant yet is completely compliant when everyone else shows up?

2. The link clearly says that he was on the ground at 7:44:13 and that Shots Fired was reported just 7 seconds later. If you're making the argument that they don't report the shots being fired until moments later...then it means that Shelby fired on Cutcher even sooner than the seven second mark. Keeping in mind that at this point Cutcher is now surrounded by all four officers.

7:44:13 p.m. - Dash camera video from Officer Turnbough's vehicle shows a voice on the radio asking, "Which direction is he facing?" Simultaneously, Crutcher hits the ground.

"They're facing westbound. I think he may have just been Tasered."

3. They called for more officers because Shelby claimed that it was a dangerous situation. It's hard to believe that while she was alone she did not feel her life in danger enough to do anything yet when the other three officers have shown up and have Cutcher surrounded she opens fire. I guess you would win the argument about non-compliance...if Shelby's version is true.

[Zomis]

The guy was high on PCP, no wonder they where suspicious of him.