Is muti likely to pull ahead of combat for cleave/st down the road?

[Pinch]

And yet i've had the opposite experience. No Assassination rogue has ever beaten me, and i do raid with one(dungeon or raid). He may or may not be bad though.

When i get "lucky" with rtb, i'm reducing AR to a roughly 45sec cd, and mfd gets used about every 4 ish finishers. And even with a 6 proc(or two) i have a hard time beating our mage with his damned legendary pyro bracers...but those ass rogues just fall further and further behind. Ours was told last night to switch to outlaw because assassination rogues are not able to keep up with outlaw - a decision based on logs from the last two nights(not just our own logs either)

The main problem is that there is a ton of misinformation out there, and pretty much every Assassination Rogue is playing the wrong spec, wearing the wrong gear, choosing the wrong relics, and going the wrong artifact path.

[Deleted]

The main problem is that there is a ton of misinformation out there, and pretty much every Assassination Rogue is playing the wrong spec, wearing the wrong gear, choosing the wrong relics, and going the wrong artifact path.

Where is your source of info on this?

[braxx]

And yet i've had the opposite experience. No Assassination rogue has ever beaten me, and i do raid with one(dungeon or raid). He may or may not be bad though.

When i get "lucky" with rtb, i'm reducing AR to a roughly 45sec cd, and mfd gets used about every 4 ish finishers. And even with a 6 proc(or two) i have a hard time beating our mage with his damned legendary pyro bracers...but those ass rogues just fall further and further behind. Ours was told last night to switch to outlaw because assassination rogues are not able to keep up with outlaw - a decision based on logs from the last two nights(not just our own logs either)

my point was that having witnessed one or two Sin rogues does not mean anything.

[elfporn]

my point was that having witnessed one or two Sin rogues does not mean anything.

And the same can be said for outlaw rogue as well(i've also beaten all outlaw i've played with except fellow guildie 855ilvl legendary lucky mofo guildie).

Just having good(or bad) relics can severely impact dps. And proper rolling and use of RtB is essential as well. RNGeezus is manageable enough that skill still plays a large factor in dps too.

[Haust]

Those are wrong already discussed in another thread.
There are so many more outlaw rogues and only a few Assa rogues.
If you look for rogue top 10 on every boss you see outlaw is dominating every boss

Once again, this logic is completely faulty. The rogue top 10 will always show outlaw rogues because out of thousands of rogues on that boss, a few of them managed to get a 3+ RTB the entire fight. Outlaw rogue is filled with variance, and you are literally cherry picking the results to only look at rogues who managed to get the luckiest with that variance.

I'm not saying the original list is super accurate, but it's a lot more accurate than just looking at the top parses for a particular boss, as that just gives you the luckiest outlaw rogues list.

[elfporn]

Once again, this logic is completely faulty. The rogue top 10 will always show outlaw rogues because out of thousands of rogues on that boss, a few of them managed to get a 3+ RTB the entire fight. Outlaw rogue is filled with variance, and you are literally cherry picking the results to only look at rogues who managed to get the luckiest with that variance.

I'm not saying the original list is super accurate, but it's a lot more accurate than just looking at the top parses for a particular boss, as that just gives you the luckiest outlaw rogues list.

And you're incorrect. You don't need 3 or 6 proc rolls the whole fight to get on that list. Luck will play a part, but you're exaggerating.

In a month, sure, all the top parses will likely be rogues that roll back to back 6 procs On a 2minute fight and squeeze in 3-4 AR's and 8+ MfD's.

But right now, even with 2000 parses, most rogues there aren't getting anything luckier than good 2/3-procs and the occasional 6-proc. They're fully utilizing those rolls to the best advantage.

Or padding the shit out of their dps like one of ours was doing last night -_- Dude had like 60+mil on ichors alone on Ilgynoth, i swear all he did was use CotD and AR on them.

[Fosgatt]

Frankly, every time I have to reroll it gives me stomach pain... the frustration kills the fun for me.. That's why I am trying to stay assass. Granted, I don't have a raid group, so I will probably be doing only Mythic +...

[neozz1]

Where are your sources, sir? You're basically just quoting opinion without anything to back these "concrete" scenarios you're spouting off.

Sims ran over time, it was posted so long I don't recall the actual numbers. Read through the Simcraft thread that is stickied, it should be in there.

[Haust]

And you're incorrect. You don't need 3 or 6 proc rolls the whole fight to get on that list. Luck will play a part, but you're exaggerating.

In a month, sure, all the top parses will likely be rogues that roll back to back 6 procs On a 2minute fight and squeeze in 3-4 AR's and 8+ MfD's.

But right now, even with 2000 parses, most rogues there aren't getting anything luckier than good 2/3-procs and the occasional 6-proc. They're fully utilizing those rolls to the best advantage.

Or padding the shit out of their dps like one of ours was doing last night -_- Dude had like 60+mil on ichors alone on Ilgynoth, i swear all he did was use CotD and AR on them.

Okay, since you seem to be thoroughly convinced on your viewpoint.

Please show me one single outlaw rogue on any top parse that did NOT roll a 6 buff OR did NOT roll a 1 buff. I guarantee you that every single rogue on that list either has gotten a 6 buff or has not rolled a single one buff. If you find otherwise, I am waiting to be proven wrong. Until then, my point stands that the list is biased and only the luckiest of outlaw rogues will perform better than equally geared and skilled assassination rogues on a single target burn fight.

[Getrow]

Okay, since you seem to be thoroughly convinced on your viewpoint.

Please show me one single outlaw rogue on any top parse that did NOT roll a 6 buff OR did NOT roll a 1 buff. I guarantee you that every single rogue on that list either has gotten a 6 buff or has not rolled a single one buff. If you find otherwise, I am waiting to be proven wrong. Until then, my point stands that the list is biased and only the luckiest of outlaw rogues will perform better than equally geared and skilled assassination rogues on a single target burn fight.

First rogue I checked in the top 20 for Ursoc, he had one buff multiple times. Never had more than two buff at any time. Not going to dig through more to see how many of the top 20 are like this, but he is not alone. You do not need god RNG to get a top 20 parse, it only helps (a shit load).

Also, now that there is more data it appears outlaw is pulling ahead in average according to WC logs. Outlaw is still outperforming sin on average, sims look to be somewhat correct.

[ghilliethekid]

At the end of the day, when all is said and done, I agree with the people saying play what you like and are good at. Me optimizing and gearing my assassination spec yielded somewhat poor results at the start, but I was enjoying the playstyle and the individual strengths of the spec. My personal viewpoint between the popular sin vs outlaw then pointing out that sub is nasty and scale well is essentialy saying three things:
1.) Sub rogue is not for everyone. I know firsthand that I do not enjoy the rotation and have trouble keeping up with certain aspects, stacked on top of my disinterest in learning it. I could struggle to learn it over a bit of time, but I know I will most likely become miserable from it feeling "forced."
2.) One thing I did when making my swap (could be right, could be wrong, but I saw a smoother-than-nothing transition) was to start my assassination spec with the bleed build (due to a fairly decent versa stack from outlaw), then transition into poison build when crit became my largest stack followed by the scaling mastery. As I stated, right wrong or indifferent this was just my personal path from outlaw.
3.) My assassination dps (not min/max raiding by ANY stretch) was consistently about 30k dps less than my more-geared outlaw spec, but quite a few parses on certain bosses had improved dps due to poor fishing for RtBs, and other variables. I personally enjoy knowing my set baseline with slightly less RnG so I can better track my progress.

In closing, I still have a gear set dedicated to my outlaw spec, and will use it pretty frequently, but having more fun with assassination is priority when I personally am only seeing slight variations of dps (directly affected by my RtBs) in my instance.

It is all opinion and speculation on my end, but playing what you enjoy and feel a drive to master will lead to a more enjoyable expansion. Plus, personally, I would rather push GREAT numbers for the spec I am working to master than mediocre/flawed numbers from any spec I don't truly enjoy. (Edit: Even if the mediocre/flawed numbers are a bit higher during the release of an expansion)

Wishing all the best of luck and thanks for hearing out my 2 cents because that's probably all this is worth lol.

-Ghillie

[Powell]

I don't see Outlaw ever being sub-optimal this expansion.
Not because they will maintain highest single target DPS, but because they're the most versatile of the specs and perform well in almost any situation.

Additionally, as long as Outlaw has Roll the Bones, they will balance for both the suboptimal roll scenario's.
If Outlaw can't push competitive numbers with mediocre rolls AND is unreliable, then it whats the point?
If this is going to remain the case, than the Potential DPS from great rolls is always going to outshine the other specs.

Wich means you do competitive DPS on average and considerably more DPS when you're lucky.

[cfStatic]

Those are wrong already discussed in another thread.
There are so many more outlaw rogues and only a few Assa rogues.
If you look for rogue top 10 on every boss you see outlaw is dominating every boss

>He's wrong because few Sin parses
>You're right because majority playing Outlaw

I really hope you understand why this is dumb af.

At the end of the day, when all is said and done, I agree with the people saying play what you like and are good at. Me optimizing and gearing my assassination spec yielded somewhat poor results at the start, but I was enjoying the playstyle and the individual strengths of the spec. My personal viewpoint between the popular sin vs outlaw then pointing out that sub is nasty and scale well is essentialy saying three things:
1.) Sub rogue is not for everyone. I know firsthand that I do not enjoy the rotation and have trouble keeping up with certain aspects, stacked on top of my disinterest in learning it. I could struggle to learn it over a bit of time, but I know I will most likely become miserable from it feeling "forced."
2.) One thing I did when making my swap (could be right, could be wrong, but I saw a smoother-than-nothing transition) was to start my assassination spec with the bleed build (due to a fairly decent versa stack from outlaw), then transition into poison build when crit became my largest stack followed by the scaling mastery. As I stated, right wrong or indifferent this was just my personal path from outlaw.
3.) My assassination dps (not min/max raiding by ANY stretch) was consistently about 30k dps less than my more-geared outlaw spec, but quite a few parses on certain bosses had improved dps due to poor fishing for RtBs, and other variables. I personally enjoy knowing my set baseline with slightly less RnG so I can better track my progress.

In closing, I still have a gear set dedicated to my outlaw spec, and will use it pretty frequently, but having more fun with assassination is priority when I personally am only seeing slight variations of dps (directly affected by my RtBs) in my instance.

It is all opinion and speculation on my end, but playing what you enjoy and feel a drive to master will lead to a more enjoyable expansion. Plus, personally, I would rather push GREAT numbers for the spec I am working to master than mediocre/flawed numbers from any spec I don't truly enjoy. (Edit: Even if the mediocre/flawed numbers are a bit higher during the release of an expansion)

Wishing all the best of luck and thanks for hearing out my 2 cents because that's probably all this is worth lol.

-Ghillie

Adding in here: people need to consider their own raids. If you like Sin and are comfortable with it vs. you hating outlaw and being only so-so, you're probably going to be performing better mechanically as sin. Go sin. if your raid is doing mechanics and beating timers: who cares?