DPS Rankings after Day 1 of Emerald Nightmare

[Rakoth]

Deep breaths people.

Blizzard has all the logs, not just these, all of them, for every fight. They also have data engineers that are going to be pouring through them and figuring out what the data is saying.

Is there an overrepresentation of Fire mages, because fire was perceived as the best spec, maybe. Blizzard will figure it out.

They have guys paid six figure salaries looking at the internal blizzard logs. Hell they can even cross reference past achievements (mythic kills / world firsts etc...) to figure out if a "skill" metric for the player and adjust accordingly.

They have stated, that they have barely even touched on balance so far. They were waiting for data, data we give them when we raid. Give them a few weeks to figure out the data, and I expect heavy balance changes in the next few weeks personally.

[Alvito]

Sorry for being a noob. I don't really pay much attention to DPS rankings much, but I was showed this thread and the Noxxic one. Any particular reason why http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/ shows MM hunter as being 3rd to last, but the chart here shows them as top?

Well noxxic is a dog shit site and should be blocked by all internet capable devices.

[Extremities]

How was that hostile :P

Edit: You are not going to get all the best players at each individual spec in the same raid. That is why logs from various raids are needed to get the big picture. I'm not trying to shit on individual players, I'm just saying that some players will perform well in a raid and still have a lot of room for improvement, while other players will perform top 3-5 in a raid and pretty much not have any room for improvement. That discrepancy does not feel good for most players, and that is the part I hope they will fix. Also, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, I'm not playing the game to be world first anything, I play the game for 3 things:

General Gameplay - Legion is doing well here.
Class Mechanics - Warlock is in my opinion not doing too well here.
Class Balance - Warlocks are not doing too well here either.

I'll simply just wait for balance changes if I feel like it, because class balance is pretty much what makes group content fun for me as a DPS: Competing for the top DPS spot in my group. Since I play with IRL friends who are all good at the game, balance is pretty vital for the competition to be any fun.

Ok, now this I can agree on. I also agree with your comments about the Warlock and also class balance making content fun. Would you agree that the overwhelming majority think that Locks are in dire need for some buffs? My alt lock is sitting at 845 and I am unable to pull 150k+ dps consistantly. My Boomkin and my Monk definitely do more. I am hoping for some class changes soon to the Lock as the lock has always been one of my favorite and my guild is in dire need of ranged dps. We're melee heavy and it'll be difficult to stop playing my Monk but if there's any class that I would change it for it would be the Lock.

[Jacpierre]

This proves my point I am making above ^.

Some logs, there's some Warlocks up in the top 10, others, they aren't even close.
(

This show how you were missing his point. The position the class comes in is not relevant. The damage the class did on the boss is. I did very well on some of the bosses as a warlock. I even did very well relative to my guild members (I believe I was 3rd on Cenarius and 5th on Xavius) but when you compare me to all of the WoW community who did those fights, my dps wasn't very impressive. No one cares how you did in your raid. What they care about is what percentile were you in your spec, and then what percentile were you against the whole of people who did that fight. If I'm 90th percentile as an affliction lock, but 40th percentile among all the people who did that boss, then my spec is pure trash and needs fixed.

[Extremities]

This show how you were missing his point. The position the class comes in is not relevant. The damage the class did on the boss is. I did very well on some of the bosses as a warlock. I even did very well relative to my guild members (I believe I was 3rd on Cenarius and 5th on Xavius) but when you compare me to all of the WoW community who did those fights, my dps wasn't very impressive. No one cares how you did in your raid. What they care about is what percentile were you in your spec, and then what percentile were you against the whole of people who did that fight. If I'm 90th percentile as an affliction lock, but 40th percentile among all the people who did that boss, then my spec is pure trash and needs fixed.

Uumm what? You're all over the place in this post. I know exactly what he was talking about. Question is, do you? Your post being all over the place almost makes it seem like you're unsure.

[Narwal]

This show how you were missing his point. The position the class comes in is not relevant. The damage the class did on the boss is. I did very well on some of the bosses as a warlock. I even did very well relative to my guild members (I believe I was 3rd on Cenarius and 5th on Xavius) but when you compare me to all of the WoW community who did those fights, my dps wasn't very impressive. No one cares how you did in your raid. What they care about is what percentile were you in your spec, and then what percentile were you against the whole of people who did that fight. If I'm 90th percentile as an affliction lock, but 40th percentile among all the people who did that boss, then my spec is pure trash and needs fixed.

I know you're just counter-pointing some unrelated point to what I'm about to say, but I will state this anyways. The one factor you're not considering is that the very best affliction warlocks, may not be playing affliction anymore. So you being in the top 90% of a spec, which may be all bad players, doesn't really prove anything about the class. This is a factor we can't really measure with this data set, but is more anecdotal, so making the statement you've made about it needing to be fixed is a fair one, given the data we've got available. Sometimes doom and gloom prophecies fulfill themselves by scaring away the best players from the class/spec. I'm basing an assumption that many good locks have left the class on anecdotal evidence I've seen of some high level warlocks leaving the class for other classes. In some situations I've seen them level the lock in case it gets buffed (I won't say fixed, because fixed infers a problem and that's subjective), but prefer to raid on other classes.

[Jacpierre]

I know you're just counter-pointing some unrelated point to what I'm about to say, but I will state this anyways. The one factor you're not considering is that the very best affliction warlocks, may not be playing affliction anymore. So you being in the top 90% of a spec, which may be all bad players, doesn't really prove anything about the class. This is a factor we can't really measure with this data set, but is more anecdotal, so making the statement you've made about it needing to be fixed is a fair one, given the data we've got available. Sometimes doom and gloom prophecies fulfill themselves by scaring away the best players from the class/spec. I'm basing an assumption that many good locks have left the class on anecdotal evidence I've seen of some high level warlocks leaving the class for other classes. In some situations I've seen them level the lock in case it gets buffed (I won't say fixed, because fixed infers a problem and that's subjective), but prefer to raid on other classes.

I can't really argue that point. It is entirely possible that "the best" players are all hunters right now, and no "good" players are affliction locks. But as you stated it is an unknown, and cannot be balanced around. You could test with a control, by pooling a lot of "top" players and have them all play every dps spec, then compare the results, but they aren't doing that and I don't see that as being reasonable without motivation on Blizzards part.

I believe this is a fair statement though.

Even if the people playing affliction are not as talented as they could be, the skill cap for managing dots on many targets (without a scriptbot) is a lot higher than the skill cap of hitting something like barrage, blade dance, whirlwind, or using sweeping strikes/blade flurry. There is just a lot more room for error, especially with how punitive it is when Agony drops off. This, imo, makes it much harder to balance around an optimal performance and means that you either allow a few players to possibly do too much damage, or a lot of players to probably do too little damage, outside of single target fights.

- - - Updated - - -

Uumm what? You're all over the place in this post. I know exactly what he was talking about. Question is, do you? Your post being all over the place almost makes it seem like you're unsure.

You think that response was "all over the place"? Seriously? Is that just your simple way of dismissing things you don't understand?

It is quite simple. You offer anecdotal evidence about your game play experiences. You see specs x y and z coming in some order, based on gear, player skill etc. Logs give us an idea of how everyone playing those things perform. If the best performing players in any spec are coming in the middle of the entire group, that isn't good.

Phrased another way. If the number one affliction lock is out damaged by say 50% of all marksmen hunters, then clearly marksmen hunters are doing a lot more damage than affliction locks. It is not reasonable to assume that 50% of all the hunters who attempted the first boss are ALL better than every single affliction lock.

[Deleted]

Deep breaths people.

Blizzard has all the logs, not just these, all of them, for every fight. They also have data engineers that are going to be pouring through them and figuring out what the data is saying.

Is there an overrepresentation of Fire mages, because fire was perceived as the best spec, maybe. Blizzard will figure it out.

They have guys paid six figure salaries looking at the internal blizzard logs. Hell they can even cross reference past achievements (mythic kills / world firsts etc...) to figure out if a "skill" metric for the player and adjust accordingly.

They have stated, that they have barely even touched on balance so far. They were waiting for data, data we give them when we raid. Give them a few weeks to figure out the data, and I expect heavy balance changes in the next few weeks personally.

Which speaks more than a thousand words considering people are already playing the game since August 30 and Blizzard worked on LEGION for 2-3 years now...

If they do have all the logs (this is the part I don't doubt. I know they got all the data they want) and they have "experts" looking at that data, then where is the balance. If there was wiggle room of 5-8% ... I could understand, but 30-50% difference in dps is something that simply can't be.

I really thought they would change with LEGION and act fast on balance issues, but so far .. nothing .. nada.

There is still time, but the raids have already opened, PvP season started, people are doing mythics+. I ask you, all of you. You see the numbers. You see the issues, People are crying and screaming. Why are we still in this mess? Why is it so hard to tune the numbers? This is no rocket science or witch craft. Someone tell me why it is so hard for Blizzard to see that (e.g. elemental shamans) are so bad and underperforming. It is no hard change to buff them. They don't need to buff them by 100%. They can increase the damage by 10% and see how they are doing and if it isn't enough then they buff them again.

[Magnosh]

So everyone was so pro saying Simcraft logs were wrong and all that crap people claim but in the end they seem pretty accurate when looking a similar fight (patchwerk vs ursok).

[ShiyoKozuki]

Which speaks more than a thousand words considering people are already playing the game since August 30 and Blizzard worked on LEGION for 2-3 years now...

If they do have all the logs (this is the part I don't doubt. I know they got all the data they want) and they have "experts" looking at that data, then where is the balance. If there was wiggle room of 5-8% ... I could understand, but 30-50% difference in dps is something that simply can't be.

I really thought they would change with LEGION and act fast on balance issues, but so far .. nothing .. nada.

There is still time, but the raids have already opened, PvP season started, people are doing mythics+. I ask you, all of you. You see the numbers. You see the issues, People are crying and screaming. Why are we still in this mess? Why is it so hard to tune the numbers? This is no rocket science or witch craft. Someone tell me why it is so hard for Blizzard to see that (e.g. elemental shamans) are so bad and underperforming. It is no hard change to buff them. They don't need to buff them by 100%. They can increase the damage by 10% and see how they are doing and if it isn't enough then they buff them again.

Blizzard are completely incompetent morons. They spout "NOT ENOUGH DATA TO DO BALANCE" yet the same exact classes that are completely broken in every other form of content is broken in raids too.

Melee are dominating all forms of content(and hunters, but they're ranged melee) and completely out of control. The classes that suck in non-raid content, guess what, ALSO SUCK IN RAIDS.

They also had 9 damn months of raid testing yet they keep saying "no data! no data!".

I bet they won't think this is data either.

It's beyond retarded that we're going to have HUGE investments via AP into specs and they can't balance worth SHIT. At this point I'm 100% certain they're intentionally making the game as imbalanced as humanly possible.

I wonder how many people are going to just straight up quit because they spend a month of grinding into a spec and it's bottom tier garbage?

[clevin]

so... warlocks arent as terrible as everyone says?
or am i reading this wrong?

They're 20-30% below the top. WTF are you looking at?

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Uumm what? You're all over the place in this post. I know exactly what he was talking about. Question is, do you? Your post being all over the place almost makes it seem like you're unsure.

He's on point and 100% correct. L2Read.

No one cares if you're a good warlock if good warlocks are 25% lower than equally good mages or hunters.

[Neinen]

Arcane is literaly on top on Ursoc. :P

But that is only because you can stand in melee and use the broken NT spam spec. It doesn't actually work for real progress raiding.

[Slicer299]

That skews MM hunter dps so much because of Ilgynoth, where obviously MM hunters will dominate because of spread adds. Maybe post individual boss rankings.

MM doesn't rank like that overall because of just 1 boss. They rank consistently high on every fight except Cenarius. Also, don't say someone needs to post something that you have the exact same access to. Pull up the link from the OP and filter the bosses yourself.

[Bahm]

So everyone was so pro saying Simcraft logs were wrong and all that crap people claim but in the end they seem pretty accurate when looking a similar fight (patchwerk vs ursok).

What?

Simcraft had MM near the bottom when its currently top 3 for the fight. It also had an almost universal higher dps at 840 ilevel, when any guild that has gotten to heroic ursoc is above 840. Also one of the main arguments against the simcraft logs was the fact that it was only a patchwerk fight, which constitutes sort of one out of 7 fights, and it's even wrong on the one fight.

[Gangresnake]

Why do they only do 75th percentile?

Noob or pro logs are logs every fight should count!

You can actually change the setting to select the percentile, people usually post 75th because it's a good middle ground

[ShiyoKozuki]

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/10

FF14's raid DPS chart.

Why exactly can square enix do this, but Blizzard can't come anywhere close to this?

[Khrux]

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/10

FF14's raid DPS chart.

Why exactly can square enix do this, but Blizzard can't come anywhere close to this?

That game has only 7 dps specs.

/thread

[Aurora]

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/10

FF14's raid DPS chart.

Why exactly can square enix do this, but Blizzard can't come anywhere close to this?

Ghostcrawler's recent comments about frost mages seem pretty indicative about how balance is done at Blizzard.

The less diplomatic answer is that there were a lot of WoW devs who played Frost mages, even though I wasn't one of them, so there were always a lot of people to point out your potential mistakes when you try to make a change.

[Deleted]

Blizzard are completely incompetent morons. They spout "NOT ENOUGH DATA TO DO BALANCE" yet the same exact classes that are completely broken in every other form of content is broken in raids too.

Melee are dominating all forms of content(and hunters, but they're ranged melee) and completely out of control. The classes that suck in non-raid content, guess what, ALSO SUCK IN RAIDS.

They also had 9 damn months of raid testing yet they keep saying "no data! no data!".

I bet they won't think this is data either.

It's beyond retarded that we're going to have HUGE investments via AP into specs and they can't balance worth SHIT. At this point I'm 100% certain they're intentionally making the game as imbalanced as humanly possible.

I wonder how many people are going to just straight up quit because they spend a month of grinding into a spec and it's bottom tier garbage?

I couldn't agree more. (though we shouldn't insult them even if by definition you are right ^___^)

I bet we will see the same balance issues throughout the entire duration of LEGION.

[Aggrophobic]

Blizzard are completely incompetent morons. They spout "NOT ENOUGH DATA TO DO BALANCE" yet the same exact classes that are completely broken in every other form of content is broken in raids too.

Melee are dominating all forms of content(and hunters, but they're ranged melee) and completely out of control. The classes that suck in non-raid content, guess what, ALSO SUCK IN RAIDS.

They also had 9 damn months of raid testing yet they keep saying "no data! no data!".

I bet they won't think this is data either.

It's beyond retarded that we're going to have HUGE investments via AP into specs and they can't balance worth SHIT. At this point I'm 100% certain they're intentionally making the game as imbalanced as humanly possible.

I wonder how many people are going to just straight up quit because they spend a month of grinding into a spec and it's bottom tier garbage?

"Melee are dominating all forms of content" yet you only see 3-4 of them in mythic raid groups?
Yeah, it sure sounds like they are "dominating".