Mythic+ shouldn't have time limits

[callipygoustp]

Yes there is.
I asked you something very simple.
Show me where that is inherent to the design, where it actually excludes a spec because it is sub-par.
You will convince me if you can show me where that is the case.

I've made my argument. Its not a very complex one. I don't care to chase your thoughts around the block to convince you. Here is the argument again:

Yes, the players decide what classes and specs they include ... based on the game design. The game design provides a puzzle. Players figure out the best way of over coming the puzzle. The result: some classes and specs are excluded. Causation pure and simple.

"for the competitive game" - that is again not inherent to the game, but player dictated.
Players dictate what is "competitive" or not.
That is an arbitrary distinction, dictated by some percentage or other measure that suits a players argument at the time.

The game is designed to have different levels of difficulty. Levels of difficulty are inherent in the game. The higher the level of difficulty the more exacting the method for over coming that difficulty; the fewer options available for resolving it.

You keep saying that the game inherently excludes specs, but you cant provide a single example where a spec is actually unable to participate in content because it is lesser performing.

I never said the game inherently excludes specs. I've said that challenging content causes players to choose the class/spec combos to over come the challenge as best as possible. Cutting edge, competitive players are very exacting. As a result some classes will be excluded. There are plenty of other areas in the game where no classes/specs are excluded.

Come on, if something is so inherent then it should be simple for you to provide that evidence.
If you keep refusing to, then that show you are lying.
I have stated exactly what it is you need to convince me.

What is this something that is so inherent? I have said :
The game has challenges.
Players determine how the best strategies to over come those challenges.
Those strategies will favor some class/specs over others.
As a result, competitive players will seek out the class/specs that favor the best strategies at the expense of class/specs that don't.
No lying. No making anything up. Stating objective facts.

Your own examples are wrong, such as arena which has not excluded any spec from participation.
Some performed better, something I am not arguing against.

You're telling me I haven't provided examples and then you tell me my examples are wrong. Dude, make up your mind. I can't have done both.

And that will make some more attractive, but it does not actually block you from using one less effective.

For an average player, of course not. For a competitive player, in challenging content, they will exclude class/specs that they don't deem sufficient.

Any barrier excluding a spec due to performance is player-created.

Which is caused by game design.

Nothing in the game is excluding a spec because it performs less.
Nowhere is it prevented from participation.
Players only create those barriers.

Game design dictates players choices.

[ComputerNerd]

I've made my argument. Its not a very complex one. I don't care to chase your thoughts around the block to convince you. Here is the argument again:



The game is designed to have different levels of difficulty. Levels of difficulty are inherent in the game. The higher the level of difficulty the more exacting the method for over coming that difficulty; the fewer options available for resolving it.


I never said the game inherently excludes specs. I've said that challenging content causes players to choose the class/spec combos to over come the challenge as best as possible. Cutting edge, competitive players are very exacting. As a result some classes will be excluded. There are plenty of other areas in the game where no classes/specs are excluded.


What is this something that is so inherent? I have said :
The game has challenges.
Players determine how the best strategies to over come those challenges.
Those strategies will favor some class/specs over others.
As a result, competitive players will seek out the class/specs that favor the best strategies at the expense of class/specs that don't.
No lying. No making anything up. Stating objective facts.


You're telling me I haven't provided examples and then you tell me my examples are wrong. Dude, make up your mind. I can't have done both.


For an average player, of course not. For a competitive player, in challenging content, they will exclude class/specs that they don't deem sufficient.


Which is caused by game design.


Game design dictates players choices.

You make a rubbish argument.

"players will determine this"
"players will seek this".

It is STILL players who make the decisions.

Game design did not force the player choices.
It did not dictate them.
Players who aren't you made different choices, for their own reasons.
The game did not dictate those, it did not for you.
You made a choice, but won't accept responsibility for that.
So you blame someone else for it.

If as you keep insisting on that being the case, then how come there are less-efficient or optimal choices being made by players.
Because they can and do make that choice.
As do you.

There are poorer compositions in arena, in mythic plus, in rated battlegrounds, and in any content for that matter where there are simply better choices than others.
Because there are choices.
None of that content is excluding them, preventing them or otherwise blocking them.

Yet that is what you keep saying the game is doing.

I ask you again.
Where is a spec excluded from content because it is lesser performing.

There are more efficient ways to do a lot of content in-game, but the fact that you can do it other ways is proof you are wrong.
You say the game dictates that, so why are people capable of doing it differently.

[Deleted]

This has to be the most stupid thread ever. Pushing to 10+ with finding ways to skip mobs with invis potions, perfect stunrotations, heroism on trash, etc, was the most fun i ever had in Wow. If you don't want to feel pressured by the time, just finish it without caring about the time. There, now you have exactly what you asked for. Oh wait. No, actually you are asking for free loot. Any idiot could finish 10+ to get his classhallchest, it's literally no challenge if you have your cc bound. What's hard is getting there by beating the +9 timer.

[Deleted]

Which is caused by game design.

It isn't though. It's almost amazing how many times you have gone back and forth yet you still don't realize it.

The game design gives you a goal and means to reach it. If there are 10 ways to reach the goal with 1 being the most optimal then saying that the other 9 ways are wrong is completely a player made statement not the actual state of the game since you can use any of those ways to reach the goal.

[Volitar]

Without a time there would be 0 challenge. If you were so inclined you could Bloodlust every single pack.

[Jtbrig7390]

Without a time there would be 0 challenge. If you were so inclined you could Bloodlust every single pack.

The timer isn't even a challenge, it makes you zerg fest and class stack.

The challenge is fighting harder mobs and bosses, so your comment about 0 challenge with no timer is wrong.

Ontopic: For lower level+ there shouldn't be a timer but anything past lets say +5 there should be a timer.

[Eapoe]

All there is to take away from this thread...we don't want a timer because we can't make it in that time limit. Seriously, the timer is not an issue. You have 30 mins to clear Maw of Souls, 45 minutes to clear HoV, and roughly 35-40 for EoA. If you can't clear it in those times and not have time left over, you are either under geared or underperforming, MAYBE with an issue of not really knowing paths to take and mobs you can skip. This isnt an insult to anyone struggling, I've been in groups that struggle to make +4 timers, but you know what I saw? Low damage, low healing, bad mob pulls, etc. Not once have I blamed a timer for failing the time limit as you have more than enough time to complete it and get a new keystone if you know what you are doing. Mythic+ is meant to be a challenge, and the timer is part of that challenge, without it you could seriously just wait 10 minutes between big trash pulls and pop every single CD you have and clear it safely.

[Deleted]

This thread makes my head hurt. You want trash packs to hit harder than raid bosses so you sit around for CDs for every pack? You want the bosses to hit so hard that you need a defensive up permanently and any unavoidable damage one shots you as non tank? The whole point is dealing with instance cleanly so you can meet the timer. What fun is waiting for CDs because the mobs are incredibly overtuned? I completely cannot see any logic in it.

If you can't meet timers and that's why this thread was made, just get better or reroll. Not every spec is capable, and it never will be.

[callipygoustp]

You make a rubbish argument.

You can say the color of the sky is red all day too, that doesn't make it so. Try actually making a counter argument rather than just ignoring what causes player decisions.

"players will determine this"
"players will seek this".

It is STILL players who make the decisions.

And what causes those decisions to be made? Game design directs those player made decisions.

Game design did not force the player choices.
It did not dictate them.

Not all players, no. Plenty of playres don't care. On the flip side, players looking to be at their best, to play the most optimal way, yes game design does dictate their choices.

Players who aren't you made different choices, for their own reasons.
The game did not dictate those, it did not for you.
You made a choice, but won't accept responsibility for that.
So you blame someone else for it.

Blame game? LOL a bit dramatic, no?

What choice did I make? Who am I blaming? Making this a bit personal now aye?

High end players make their decisions based on the design of the challenge. Period. If a challenge is less demanding, those players have more options for over coming that challenge. If a challenge is more demanding, those players have fewer options for over coming that challenge.

If as you keep insisting on that being the case, then how come there are less-efficient or optimal choices being made by players.
Because they can and do make that choice.
As do you.

Of course, but not all those players are looking at defeating the most challenging content in the game. For those looking to optimize their ability to defeat the most challenging content in the game, they will choose class/specs that are appropriate and group with other class/specs that are appropriate. You seem to be determined time and time again to muddy the waters. This conversation is about high end challenging content, in the case of this thread Mythic+. I'm not talking about leveling or questing or normal dungeons or heroic dungeons or lfr raids or normal raids or heroic raids. All of those areas of content are very forgiving and I expect, based on their design, that the associated challenges never result in exclusion of class/specs.

There are poorer compositions in arena, in mythic plus, in rated battlegrounds, and in any content for that matter where there are simply better choices than others.
Because there are choices.
None of that content is excluding them, preventing them or otherwise blocking them.
Yet that is what you keep saying the game is doing.

I've never said that about PvP. PvP is a whole other game. I've seen people play undesirable class/specs at the highest levels of PvP. But again, you're muddying the waters, shifting the goal posts, etc.

I ask you again.
Where is a spec excluded from content because it is lesser performing.

There are more efficient ways to do a lot of content in-game, but the fact that you can do it other ways is proof you are wrong.
You say the game dictates that, so why are people capable of doing it differently.

I've never said there aren't less efficient ways of defeating challenges in game. I never said less efficient classes/specs can't over come the most difficult current challenges. Can't be wrong if I didn't say it.

That there are other, less efficient ways of over coming a challenge does not change my argument:
Design affects players decisions. Blizzard designs a challenge. High end players dissect the challenge and figure out the best way to over come it and the build teams appropriately to do so.

Man, re-reading this and then looking through the thread you are all over the fucking place. To think, this all started from this response:

Every type of difficulty design is going to result in an optimal party configuration. This is the nature of a multi class game.

You refuse to see that game design affects players decisions. That's the TLDR;. *shrug* Can't lead a horse to water and all of that.

[Tatahe]

I see your point but I personally wouldn't enjoy doing that as much as I do now if there wasn't a time limit. A tight time limit might trigger me but this time limit feels perfect in every dungeon +-1 minute maybe

[callipygoustp]

It isn't though. It's almost amazing how many times you have gone back and forth yet you still don't realize it.

If player decisions are not based on the design of a challenge what are they based on? What directs player made decisions? Thin air?

The game design gives you a goal and means to reach it. If there are 10 ways to reach the goal with 1 being the most optimal then saying that the other 9 ways are wrong is completely a player made statement not the actual state of the game since you can use any of those ways to reach the goal.

I'm not saying the other 9 ways are wrong. I'm saying there is an optimal way of defeating challenges; that's all. Please don't accuse me of arguing something I didn't state.

[Tradu]

The time limit is there to see if you're actually good/geared enough to "beat" the dungeon rather than running into trash packs for 10 hours killing 1 mob at a time before dying. That said, the whole reward structure of M+ is a fucking mess.

[ComputerNerd]

And what causes those decisions to be made? Game design directs those player made decisions.

Not all players, no. Plenty of playres don't care. On the flip side, players looking to be at their best, to play the most optimal way, yes game design does dictate their choices.

High end players make their decisions based on the design of the challenge. Period. If a challenge is less demanding, those players have more options for over coming that challenge. If a challenge is more demanding, those players have fewer options for over coming that challenge.

That there are other, less efficient ways of over coming a challenge does not change my argument:

You refuse to see that game design affects players decisions. That's the TLDR;. *shrug* Can't lead a horse to water and all of that.

You can't even produce a consistent argument.
You say players make their decisions, and say the game dictates them.
There are as you say people making different decisions, therefore the game is not dictating them.
The game is either dictating them and removing player choice, or players have choice and the game is not dictating them.
You can't have both at once.

You said the game design was responsible, therefore blaming the game for something you just described as a player decision.
Your argument is so full of holes.

You even contradicted yourself multiple times in that one post.
Players decide what their goal is, and choose the route there.
The game is dictating nothing about that decision, only offering ways to get there.
In some cases there are fewer ways to achieve that.

If "high-end" players are challenging themselves, then why do they go optimal when that is doing exactly the opposite and is the choice to trivialise it as much as possible.
It is optimising the results, not seeking challenge.
Seeking challenge is actually doing it the hard way.

If your goal is the highest possible progression in mythic plus with the least amount of work, then yes your options are going to be limited.
But it is your choice of goal, your decision as to what your goal is, and how far you will go to achieve it.
Your choices, the game does not dictate any of those for you, only you.

[Deleted]

what I don't understand is that people argue about specific "setups" which are gonna be fotm.

Even if blizzard would change the mechanics to a more cc and utility fight wouldn't that just change what classes are better to complete a specific mythic difficulty?

I.E. now you want aoe stuns + kicks with aoe-dps classes. (the setup we are running now is DH-Hunter-Arms - Blood-DK -hPala - an we easily get 6+ mythics with 2-3 chests - haven't tried 7+ yet)

but if we would lift up the strategic aspect of the game then wouldn't that only shift the current top-classes from aoe-dps + stuns to single target cc and high single target burst? This game has never been about class-balance. There has allways been a top-tier for specific tasks in this game.

Some classes got superb single target burst others are great for multi-target fights. Same goes for healers and tanks.
I don't really get this outcry about the time limit. Build up a group with a set base and try to get as high as possible. (you can reach m+ 10 or higher by going for 1 each time) There's no class which is not viable. Ofcourse it will be harder if you play with 3 single target dps classes but it has allways been like that, even in raids.

Let's not forget that we are nt supposed to finish m+15 within the first fortnight.(maybe a few will be able to but it's not a realistic goal for 99% of the player base) In 4-5 weeks your gear will be on a level at which your overall stats will make level 4-5 really easy. This is called progression.

[Rumex]

But the whole rush concept is destroying it for alot of classes. Alot of classes can't compete with the burst dps of a Hunter/Fire Mage, Rouge, DH, WW monk. Some classes are just way ahead of the rest in Mythic+ and that is very fucking stupid. Also classes with cr is almost mandatory in higher lvl mythics, same goes with BL/TW. It is the same with interrupts, you want classes with a short interrupt and thats why classes like Mages needs a serious nerf, you have TW, you have CC, you have high dmg, you have high burst, you have great mobility, you have short interrupts, pretty much the same with shammy. They are just too good for 5 man content, they need to make other classes more viable ..

[Deleted]

OP seems to be one of those players who never heard of crowd control.

You can only pump up those number so much, before a hit from a boss oneshots the tank, and you can only add mechanics so much, before every boss has the same mechanics.

[Auru]

The time limit is really the only 'hard' part imo.. if it wasn't there you could creep through one mob at a time if you wished.

I don't like timers in a lot of games or types of content, but here for this specific mode I think it really suits it.

[Pufster]

OP seems to be one of those players who never heard of crowd control.

You can only pump up those number so much, before a hit from a boss oneshots the tank, and you can only add mechanics so much, before every boss has the same mechanics.

What does cc have to do with a rush fest? In fact you don't use cc cause you aoe all the time. Also Bolstering affix: no cc'ing there.

[faithbane]

"alternate" path is the key here.. You just want it to be raids but 5 man, yea thats not the point. The whole thing was suppose to replace the challenge mode system with the time limits and be an ALTERNATIVE system, not a raid shrunk to 5 man size. Also, you can make a 5 man group with 5 keystones, ignore the timer completely and have 5 chill runs. No one is stopping you.

[kamuimac]

The time limit is literally the only part of a mythic+ that make it challenging

no time limit is the only part that makes them stupid zergfests :/