Sublety PvE issue; Shadow Dance

[Deleted]

Hello,
Was wondering if there were any Rogues on here that play Sub well in raids that could advice somewhat on this issue:
It seems to me that Sub is really useless in raids, because I end up draining all my shadow dance stacks and have to sit and spam Backstab->Evis until I can get up to one Shadow Dance again.

Is it normal to dran your Shadow Dances in an encounter, or am I doing something wrong - somehow not sustaining the stacks properly?
I only have one slot of Energetic Stabbing atm, but not sure if that is a gamechanger?

Advice appreciated!

[secondratetech]

Yes & yes. You are probably doing something wrong & sub does have problems on raid fights

A few anecdotal things I've learned is that timing is very important with this spec, likely more so than any other in current game. Your abilities need to be used with consideration for combo points, current energy, shadow dance charges, symbols of death & potential movement & your talent selection will impact this quite a bit as well.

1> If you are using Deeper Stratagem or Anticipation, never use a finisher with less than 5 cp. The guaranteed energy return is essential.
2> If you are using Marked for death, DON'T burn it at start of fight. The spell looks like it is for burst, but against a long single target fight it used to keep the rotation going Use it as a energy regen/shadow dance recharge mechanic. Make sure you are under 2 charges of shadowdance before using & less than 80 energy.
- if it there are lots of adds, save your MfD for the adds, usually you can get several extra refreshes and extra shadow dance charges.
- alternatively, if you are using Master of Shadows, make sure you don't shadow dance if you are at or above 70 energy. 'waste' your energy on a backstab first and get the combo point if needed.

3> When movement is needed, use sprint and don't attack for the 3 seconds to get your bonus vanish.
4> Don't forget to use vanish as an extra charge of shadowdance. Use it early when you are less than 3 charges, you can usually get a few off against a raid boss.



I'm likely switching to assassin this week. The upcoming buffs to sub aren't going to make the rotation on raid fights more enjoyable, although it will raise your damage.

[Deleted]

Yes & yes. You are probably doing something wrong & sub does have problems on raid fights

A few anecdotal things I've learned is that timing is very important with this spec, likely more so than any other in current game. Your abilities need to be used with consideration for combo points, current energy, shadow dance charges, symbols of death & potential movement & your talent selection will impact this quite a bit as well.

I'm likely switching to assassin this week. The upcoming buffs to sub aren't going to make the rotation on raid fights more enjoyable, although it will raise your damage.

The thing is I'm doing all of those things right, I think. But I seem to have an energy draught. Do you never fall out of your shadow dance stacks? I think that's my main issue. I don't overspend my energy, I can keep up the DoT, I only poof at 70 energy. Yet I drain myself of Shadow Dance very quickly, throwing my damage from 210-200k down to like 170k. Is energetic stabbing the solution to that? Since I only have 1 rank in it atm

[Tiorda]

I'm likely switching to assassin this week. The upcoming buffs to sub aren't going to make the rotation on raid fights more enjoyable, although it will raise your damage.

While sims show all specs pretty much even in 840 gear, sub is going to outpace its counterparts very quickly with it's excellent scaling.

[secondratetech]

It helps, in fact, it is pretty much necessary. As well as the small chance at an extra combo point talent. The spec is balanced around all traits unlocked. Rotation still feels bad though. There is a long sub thread you should read through (at least starting from 9/1) as well as a few linked guides which will help a bit.

- - - Updated - - -

While sims show all specs pretty much even in 840 gear, sub is going to outpace its counterparts very quickly with it's excellent scaling.

Rotation feelsbadman :/

[13ene3]

Is it normal to dran your Shadow Dances in an encounter, or am I doing something wrong - somehow not sustaining the stacks properly.

Totally normal to run out of stacks. You'll want to make sure you are pooling up enough energy that you are trying to get four Shadowstrikes off during your Shadow Dances. Make sure to energy starve yourself before entering Shadow Dance. That'll allow you get more CP which means more finishers which means lower cooldown on Shadow Dance.

Also, if there is ever a point in the fight when you can get off a 4 or 5 combo point generating Shuriken Storm, this is a good way to reduce the cooldown on some of those Shadow Dances. You definitely have to manage this and weave it into your single target, but it'll make you not feel so starved for Shadow Dances. I feel like if you do this well, the most you might be without a Shadow Dance is a few seconds when you can pool up your energy.

[elcapone]

I made quick video about it. The only thing I did different I used mark of death beginning of fight. I didnt have sprint trait unlocked in the video. I will try saving mark of death, but at the 2:42 to 3:00 min mark I was back at sitting at 2 charges, and mark of death refreshed. I used vanish there. I dont think delaying my mark of death would have improved my dps by that much. The main thing I hope the buffs will do that it won't force me to burn my shadow charges, I can be patient with it.

[13en3]

Some mistakes, like using a CP generating ability when you should use a finisher add up to downtime. Each time you do that, you could be losing anywhere from 3s to 12s off of your next Shadow Dance. Finishers should be used at 4points most of the time, especially Nightblade.

I suggest using Vigor. I haven't looked at logs really, but my own play suggests that getting off that extra Shadowstrike and generating 2 CPs is better than the 6th combo and 10% at lower iLvLs. It's especially good if you take Master of Shadows so you are an energy generating machine. Give those talents a try and see if it works better for your playstyle.