I'm sorry but not being able to do the two Artifact Quests in LFR is bullshit.

[Wingspan]

Your argument is bananas. You're simultaneously saying that cosmetics aren't valuable so it's fine to put them in LFR, and that they ARE valuable because it's apparently some kind of significant loss if they aren't available there. You can't come from both of those angles at once.

Again, mountain out of a molehill. There's absolutely nothing wrong with an artifact skin only being available in normal and beyond. Making that skin have even the most basic level of prestige would make keeping it out of LFR a no-brainer.

YOU are actually the one coming at it from both angles at once. Either the skins are or are not valuable. If they ARE valuable, then simply make them the carrot for higher raiding (not gear). And if they ARE NOT valuable, then there is no harm in letting all modes of the content have access to them.

And from my viewpoint you are the one making the mountain here... particularly if you do not consider them valuable, but either way really.

[Snuffleupagus]

Which you can also buy with gold. Something hardcore raiders should have in abundance.

You're aware that outside of selling carries, raiding itself is not that lucrative, right?

[Bosen]

Apology accepted.

[RobertoCarlos]

You're aware that outside of selling carries, raiding itself is not that lucrative, right?

Depends on guild but hardcore raiders that don't want to step into LFR shouldnt be worried about not having gold.

And selling carries is the most lucrative method of earning gold so dont know why you are dismissing it

[Snuffleupagus]

Depends on guild. If you are good enough to not bother with LFR should be no problem selling heroic archi kills back in draenor/CM runs/Selling any boss kill with a mount. Heaps of ways for guilds to make stupid amounts of gold.

You're aware that outside of selling carries, raiding itself is not that lucrative, right?

[RobertoCarlos]

You're aware that outside of selling carries, raiding itself is not that lucrative, right?

If u gave me a min i fixed up my post

[Snuffleupagus]

If u gave me a min i fixed up my post

I noticed. I'm not dismissing it, but not every guild is capable of selling carries, and oversupply of a product devastates the market, making it less lucrative. Also, widening the gap begween Mythic and other difficulties just creates further divides.

So again:

You're aware that outside of selling carries, raiding itself is not that lucrative, right?

[RobertoCarlos]

I noticed. I'm not dismissing it, but not every guild is capable of selling carries, and oversupply of a product devastates the market, making it less lucrative. Also, widening the gap begween Mythic and other difficulties just creates further divides.

So again:

You're aware that outside of selling carries, raiding itself is not that lucrative, right?

As a raider who has 375 food, 2 pots every pull and a flask/rune. Yes I am aware how expensive raiding is. I also have access to content others don't and have maxed out professions and rank 3 enchanting recipes from raids. Plus as a raider I spend time making sure I have plenty of gold. And dont waste my time bashing people in LFR.

[CaptainV]

My biggest issue with this isnt that its bad per say, but rather, that its unethical.

During Mists and Warlords it was entirley possible to gear up the legendary cloak through LFR.

I myself prefer doing normal raiding anyway, but I could see for convinence reasons why doing it in LFR could be a thing.

It feels... forced, on the playerbase, considering that they gave everything else away, trying to limit people actually makes this a problem, it creates stigma.

Legion is rapidly becomming close to becomming the second comming of Warlords hiding in false promises of being a better expansion, like Warlords promised to be to Mists.

[Snuffleupagus]

As a raider who has 375 food, 2 pots every pull and a flask/rune. Yes I am aware how expensive raiding is. I also have access to content others don't and have maxed out professions and rank 3 enchanting recipes from raids. Plus as a raider I spend time making sure I have plenty of gold. And dont waste my time bashing people in LFR.

Your personal experience as a raider does not equal the wider community.

I raid with 375 (haste) food, flasks, and double armor potions. Doesn't mean everyone else does.

And if you spent half as much effort reading my posts as you apparently do farming mats and gold, you'd see in not advocating for LFR to go anywhere, I'm saying raiders shouldn't be compelled into LFR while not locking players out of content.

I raid on my alt with a guild that generally progress halfway into heroic before the end of a tier. Lovely people, just lack coordination and skill. They raid LFR as well, and locking them out is a flat out retarded idea. Which means the issue is runes. Because other raiders have no reason to step into LFR other than a weak chance at titanforging and runes. Titanforging is here to stay, but runes are easily solvable.

[RobertoCarlos]

Your personal experience as a raider does not equal the wider community.

I raid with 375 (haste) food, flasks, and double armor potions. Doesn't mean everyone else does.

And if you spent half as much effort reading my posts as you apparently do farming mats and gold, you'd see in not advocating for LFR to go anywhere, I'm saying raiders shouldn't be compelled into LFR while not locking players out of content.

I raid on my alt with a guild that generally progress halfway into heroic. Lovely people, just lack coordination and skill. They raid LFR as well, and locking them out is a flat out retarded idea. Which means the issue is runes. Because other raiders have no reason to step into LFR other than a weak chance at titanforging and runes. Titanforging is here to stay, but runes are easily solvable.

I'll agree giving runes to just LFR and healer/tank satchels is pretty lame and don't quite understand it personally. I'm just hoping we can buy a permanent one again like in Draenor with rep.

[Aliven]

I don't know what you mean, but it doesn't matter. A skin doesn't affect your gameplay, so there's no valid excuse.

There is also none for it being unobtainable in LFR. See, the "its just cosmetic stop qq" argument can be used both way.

- - - Updated - - -

That you have to put in work for nice things?

You dont. Also, nice thing is subjective.

[Goldielocks]

There is also none for it being unobtainable in LFR. See, the "its just cosmetic stop qq" argument can be used both way.

Not really. It's a consequence of being the opposite of a gameplay change. The reason why the quest can be done for flying in LFR is because it has an effect on your gameplay. Therefore, a cosmetic would be the opposite, locked behind more work because it does not affect gameplay.

Different rewards have different unlocks. That's how it is. It wouldn't make sense to have both of them unlocked as easily as the other. Which would you rather have be the harder unlock?

[Aliven]

Not really. It's a consequence of being the opposite of a gameplay change. The reason why the quest can be done for flying in LFR is because it has an effect on your gameplay. Therefore, a cosmetic would be the opposite, locked behind more work because it does not affect gameplay.

Different rewards have different unlocks. That's how it is. It wouldn't make sense to have both of them unlocked as easily as the other. Which would you rather have be the harder unlock?

Why you have to choose? You can have both. You dont have to choose. It doesnt in any way, shape or form affect you if most players would get the cosmetic reward in LFR. If it affect you then you have the problem.

[Snuffleupagus]

Why you have to choose? You can have both. You dont have to choose. It doesnt in any way, shape or form affect you if most players would get the cosmetic reward in LFR. If it affect you then you have the problem.

The same argument can be made for Mythic mounts and titles.

At the end of the day, you get rewards that are appropriate for what you spend your time on. Johnny McQuestalot doesn't need to be 895 geared to do world quests and a daily Heroic. If you lack character progression, more gear is not a viable solution.

It ranks as follows:

Questing
Queuable Dungeons & Raids
Group Content

The distribution of rewards is structured so that no one can get a reward that gives an unfair advantage in anything lower than the content you do. That's why flying is LFR friendly. That's why skins are gated behing higher difficulties.

Anyone who says they raid Mythic for the challenge is either in a top 100 guild, or flat out lying. No one raids without some way to show off the fact that they raided hard content. That's why during early WotLK you had people in full Sunwell gear sitting on the Dalaran Bank steps even though it was 10 levels below them.

Blizzard recognises the need for visual rewards, hence the difference in appearance. Hence the Mythic raid mounts. Hence HFC tier looking different at different levels (Mythic very much so).

The most you could argue for is an LFR specific skin, but that never seems to come up earnestly, because most people know that it wouldn't be the symbol they want.

The model and recolors are intended to reward non-queued gameplay. Working as intended.

It's like you people gave forgotten that once upon a time it was spell ranks that were gated behind raids and dungeons. Or even attunements to entire raids.

[Goldielocks]

Why you have to choose? You can have both. You dont have to choose. It doesnt in any way, shape or form affect you if most players would get the cosmetic reward in LFR. If it affect you then you have the problem.

No, you can't have both. What's the point of giving different rewards to people of different skill levels then? What's the point of trying at all?

As another has pointed out, people would be more gratified by an actual reward that reflects their accomplishment, rather than only an achievement. Better rewards for more work put in is a reflection of how our society functions, so it makes sense. In the end, the third tier for artifact skins has been chosen for something a raider would unlock, just as the fourth is for pvp.

[Muadiib]

...M+ gets to be harder than normal EN after the first affix. Normal is not hard by any stretch of the imagination...

Well did a Mythic+2 (Black Rook Hold) yesterday and found it much easier than normal ED. Not that either are really hard tbh

[MisterBigglez]

Normal is so trivial anyone can pug and clear 7/7. If you can queue and wait to clear LFR, you can open that group finder and join a group. It will probably take you the exact same time.

[Choda]

I could clear normal EN with a pug group in half the time it would take me to contemplate and come to terms with the fact that people are still arguing over this inane flame bait argument.

[BreathTaker]

No matter if it's right or wrong, i'm considering giving up Legion sooner then expected when there's "normal+ raid only" stuff (except for epics).
I'm here for leveling, grinding reps and achievements and 5ppls which DO NOT require me to use the fucking voice chat. I just cannot afford speaking, cannot afford putting my headphones on so that i cannot hear what's going on around me at home.
It's like a month at best of things left to do for me and i unsubscribe untill the next patch.
Which is sad because even when it hits - i'm left behind the story and cannot progress to see what's the legion is about.

That makes every expansion last for like 3-4 month total at best for me, while otehrs play for 2 years.
I see no reason for blizzard to ever introduce anything aside epics of higher ilvl and unique looks to those raiding.