MH17 missile 'came from Russia', Dutch-led investigators say

[thilicen]

Russia will keep screaming their socks off when someone else fucks up and just deny anything they themselves do until it blows over. That's the russian way.

[caervek]

Russia will keep screaming their socks off when someone else fucks up and just deny anything they themselves do until it blows over.

OMG America how could you bomb the wrong troops you idio- What's an aid convoy? I don't see any aid convoy! :P

[Kellhound]

OMG America how could you bomb the wrong troops you idio- What's an aid convoy? I don't see any aid convoy! :P

Lets be honest, its unlikely the US accidentally bombed the Syrians, more likely a case of "You bomb us, we bomb you."

[Skroe]

That's basically how I feel, except I'm entirely convinced they would have needed to send Russian equipment operators when such a large amount of the rebel forces were former USSR military, it's almost impossible they didn't have at least a couple of people who knew how to operate a Buk.

I agree with this, but we need to keep in perspective what "operate" is.

Rudimentary training, being able to turn on, aim and fire a weapon (or really do anything), especially in controlled (training) conditions, is very different than having to do that in an operational environment or in the messy morass of the world. Or to put it another way, the Russian soldier who fired the missile surely knew how to do so from training on base, but did he know how to tell two types of planes apart when perhaps, he never had to do that (or do that as quickly, and with 100% accuracy) in a training environment?

We'll never know for sure of course. But it's easy to see the scenario: a poorly trained Russian soldier on his first deployment who has only ever operated a Buk (or something like it) in field training, detects what looks like a Cargo Aircraft (like the prior 2) coming into range of it's radar. It is flying at 530 miles per hour. He has about 90 seconds to figure out what it is and if he should fire or not. Since this a warzone, nominally, he think's it's Ukranian Air Force, and with a ticking clock, he fires.

It sound stupid, but it's in a terrible way, entirely understandable. People make this type of error all the time with less complicated and less deadly scenarios.

Rebels might have been there observing, but it was almost certainly a Russian soldier on the vehicle. But that would have mattered little in the very likely event he was a young conscript with rudimentary, controlled conditions training, on his first deployment, and under the pressure of a clock.

But no matter what, Russia still moved military forces into a neighboring European country and for that alone, should be sanctions into the dark ages.

[Deleted]

Luckily, Skroe's extremism stays a fringe in modern society. Phew.
Can someone tell him "war is not cool"?
But sure, why would he care, he's not the one that goes to war isn't he.

[Skroe]

OMG America how could you bomb the wrong troops you idio- What's an aid convoy? I don't see any aid convoy! :P

The US almost certainly bombed those Syrian troops on purpose.

You'll note the close calls stopped. Because Russia got the picture. It was playing a stupid game bombing so near US troops. And it was one bomb away from winning a very stupid prize.

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Luckily, Skroe's extremism stays a fringe in modern society. Phew.
Can someone tell him "war is not cool"?
But sure, why would he care, he's not the one that goes to war isn't he.

Did you actually read my posts? Because I really think you don't.

There is legitimately two posts here saying MH17 wasn't on purpose, it was an accident.

My commentary on the status of Russia would be the case regardless of Ukraine and the past few years ever having happened or not. They represent the public intelligence consensus on where Russia is heading.

Call it fringe all you like. It's not. It represents where most analysts publicly think Russia is heading in decades ahead.

Frankly at this stage, it is your world view, where the EU and Russia that should cooperate, that is fringe. You're the very definition of a dead-ender. But that is of little relevance. The estrangement of Europe and Russia is something that is happening, whether you like it or not.

It's been over two years since Sectoral Sanctions that you swore would never happen were put in place, and besides some occasional loose talk, there is no sign of them going away any time soon.

Could you be any more out of touch?

[Skroe]

We did the same with Germany 100 years ago with the Treaty of Versailles. We all know how that turned out...

The relative power of Russia in 2016 is a far cry from the power of Germany in the first decades of the 20th century.

The Question of Germany, dating back to German Unification in the 1871, wasn't answered until after World War II... or really even later... until German Unification in the 1990s. In a sense, even events as late as the Second World War and the subsequent partition of Germany happened because the German Question wasn't satisfactorily resolved, much less resolved in a way that was compatible with the interests of other powers.

The Treaty of Versailles's harsh terms getting us World War II is a gross simplification of events. Perhaps it played a key role in the rise of a Fascist Germany. But a second major European War in which Germany played a central role? Due to the changes in economies and great power relations, due to the rise of the Soviet Union under Stalin, do the the Rise of the United States as a global power, due to French and British Ambitions around the world, due to a risen Japan (a victor in World War I let's recall) 's interests conflicting with so much of the above it was coming.

If you want to talk about a potential World War III, the modern day "Question of China" - can China be a responsible stakeholder in the Western-build international system or will it seek to supplant the United States' global supremacy - being unresolved is a far greater risk than the ongoing decline of Russia. China and the US are barreling straight into a Thucydides trap, in large part because the question is not remotely satisfactorily resolved.

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Didn't you know that nation bashing is fine if you just use enough words?

It's nation bashing to describe Russia in terminal decline despite the metrics reflecting that and it being the broad opinion of western foreign observers?

It's nation bashing to put that decline in context of all the other falls Russia has suffered in the last 110 years?

It's nation bashing to describe them as a gas station, which is a rather accurate and succinct way of describing their only meaningful economic contribution, oil and gas?

That's where we are now?

If I wanted to bash Russia, I'd issue some nasty opinion about Russians. It is the most direct way after all, isn't it? I mean I got a few words (well much more than a few) to describe the oh so wonderful ways in which they've become willing accomplices to the War Criminal Vladmir Putin's hi-jinks. Keep up the good work boys. I'm sure your children and grandchildren will thank you one day for forsaking democracy for authoritarianism because the famous Russian backbone of steel turned out to well... more like soggy ramen. When the going got tough, yet again, you ran into the arms of the autocrat who promised greatness. *golfclap*. Silly us for expecting better.

But I'm not interested in doing that. What's more interesting is how this investigation effects Western policy which in turn effects the Russian response, which collectively will direct how history progresses.

We simply cannot talk about Russian foreign policy in 2016 without talking about how Russia in 2016 isn't Russia in 2001, much less the Soviet Union in 1990 of all things. That is what decline looks like.

[caervek]

We simply cannot talk about Russian foreign policy in 2016 without talking about how Russia in 2016 isn't Russia in 2001, much less the Soviet Union in 1990 of all things. That is what decline looks like.

Wait, Russia have improved massively since 2001 lol. Their economy is better, their trade is better, their image is better, their military is improving instead of decaying, etc etc.

[Dentelan]

Maybe missile came from Russia (almost all weapons in post soviet republics came from russia, surprise). But for me its still open question why Ukraine did not closed its airspace when there was battlezone, when Ukraine has to do it. Country that didnt close its airspace is just as responsible for plane crash as those who shot it down. No one is talking about that cuz Ukraine is now west's puppy.

[Ulmita]

It means nothing if Putin himself comes out tomorrow and says "Yup, all true, we did it", BECAUSE NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN. Russia is not going to be punished further, the rebels are basically untouchable, so what is the point of compromising classified data? Sure isnt worth it to make nobodies like us happy.

The point of proving whose fault is? The dead and their families ofc. What the hell are you smoking dude?

[Hooked]

The point of proving whose fault is? The dead and their families ofc. What the hell are you smoking dude?

Who cares?, what the hell are you smoking?. You want a nuclear war with Russia over the Ukraine and fucking syria?. I don't give .00001% about Syria and give about 1/2% of a shit about the Ukraine.

[Deleted]

The US almost certainly bombed those Syrian troops on purpose.

You'll note the close calls stopped. Because Russia got the picture. It was playing a stupid game bombing so near US troops. And it was one bomb away from winning a very stupid prize.

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Did you actually read my posts? Because I really think you don't.

There is legitimately two posts here saying MH17 wasn't on purpose, it was an accident.

My commentary on the status of Russia would be the case regardless of Ukraine and the past few years ever having happened or not. They represent the public intelligence consensus on where Russia is heading.

Call it fringe all you like. It's not. It represents where most analysts publicly think Russia is heading in decades ahead.

Frankly at this stage, it is your world view, where the EU and Russia that should cooperate, that is fringe. You're the very definition of a dead-ender. But that is of little relevance. The estrangement of Europe and Russia is something that is happening, whether you like it or not.

It's been over two years since Sectoral Sanctions that you swore would never happen were put in place, and besides some occasional loose talk, there is no sign of them going away any time soon.

Could you be any more out of touch?

The problem Skroe, is that you crafted your reality out of your own personal issues, and now you actually believe it's the way things are.
There is no war, trading has dropped but is still going, no one wants a ww3 so your apocalyptic scenarios just remain a work of fiction.

[Skroe]

Wait, Russia have improved massively since 2001 lol. Their economy is better, their trade is better, their image is better, their military is improving instead of decaying, etc etc.

Absolutely.

In 2001 the only near-peer across the table from Russia was the United States. The EU was a half-formed group. China was backwards. Russia was easily the second most powerful country/union in the world. The Russian Federation being then still the relatively recently formed successor state of the Sovet Union, and the legal successor to it's responsibilities and treaties, was treated as a peer. That is why, for example, it was invited to the G7, even though it wasn't technically a major economy.

Today, it may not even be fourth in global power. Today the United States is still the world's only superpower. China and the EU are probably 2 and 3, in some order depending on what we're talking about. Germany alone is probably 4th.

If you don't count Germany because we say EU power and German power are one and the same, that makes Russia 4th in the pecking order. If you count German and EU power as distinct (with some overlap), then that probably makes Russia fifth. In any case regardless, the decline in power is extremely clear. As I've said on many occasions, Russia cannot survive as a major power sandwiched between a rich and successful EU and a powerful China, with the United States above all of them.

In large part, the decline of Russia is only in part due to things that Russia can control. The fact is, a country of 140 million people with a GDP under $2 trillion will not be a power in the way the 500 million person / $17 trillion EU and the 1.2 billion / $10 trillion (although number is probably a fraud) China is. The footprint is just too small. The end.

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The problem Skroe, is that you crafted your reality out of your own personal issues, and now you actually believe it's the way things are.
There is no war, trading has dropped but is still going, no one wants a ww3 so your apocalyptic scenarios just remain a work of fiction.

Yeah okay. Djalil, because I'm never tired of making you look ridiculous, here is the New York Times Editorial Page, posted an hour ago, pretty much saying exactly what I said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/29/op...f=opinion&_r=0

Vladimir Putin’s Outlaw State
By THE EDITORIAL BOARD SEPT. 29, 2016

President Vladimir Putin is fast turning Russia into an outlaw nation. As one of five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council, his country shares a special responsibility to uphold international law. Yet, his behavior in Ukraine and Syria violates not only the rules intended to promote peace instead of conflict, but also common human decency.

This bitter truth was driven home twice on Wednesday. An investigative team led by the Netherlands concluded that the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine in July 2014, killing 298 on board, was sent from Russia to Russian-backed separatists and returned to Russia the same night. Meanwhile, in Syria, Russian and Syrian warplanes knocked out two hospitals in the rebel-held sector of Aleppo as part of an assault that threatens the lives of 250,000 more people in a war that has already claimed some 500,000 Syrian lives.

Russia has tried hard to pin the blame for the airline crash on Ukraine. But the new report, produced by prosecutors from the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine, confirms earlier findings. It uses strict standards of evidence and meticulously documents not only the deployment of the Russian missile system that caused the disaster but also Moscow’s continuing cover-up.

Ukraine’s foreign minister, Pavlo Klimkin, told The Times last week that his government is determined to bring both Russia and the individuals who fired the missile to justice.

Some Western officials have accused Russia of war crimes, charges that could be pursued through international channels, even if Moscow blocks a formal referral to the International Criminal Court. New sanctions against Russia also should be considered. Mr. Putin will undoubtedly fight any such action, using his veto on the Security Council, but whatever his response, the United States should lend its support to Ukraine’s quest for accountability.

There seems no holding Mr. Putin to account in Syria. For months he has pretended to negotiate on a political solution to a five-year-old civil war between his client, President Bashar al-Assad, and rebels backed by the United States and some Arab nations. But despite pleas from Secretary of State John Kerry, who has spent an enormous amount of time and effort negotiating two separate (and short-lived) cease-fires, Russian and Syrian forces, backed by Iranian ground troops, have continued the slaughter.

Over recent days, Mr. Putin has again shown his true colors with air attacks that have included powerful bunker-busting bombs that can destroy underground hospitals and safety zones where civilians seek shelter. On Sept. 19, Russia bombed an aid convoy, which like hospitals and civilians are not supposed to be targeted under international law.

On Wednesday, Mr. Kerry threatened to withdraw an American team from Geneva where the two sides had established a center to collaborate on a cease-fire. But that is likely to have little effect, and Mr. Kerry has few, if any, diplomatic cards to play.

President Obama has long refused to approve direct military intervention in Syria. And Mr. Putin may be assuming that Mr. Obama is unlikely to confront Russia in his final months and with an American election season in full swing. But with the rebel stronghold in Aleppo under threat of falling to the government, administration officials said that such a response is again under consideration.

Mr. Putin fancies himself a man on a mission to restore Russia to greatness. Russia could indeed be a great force for good. Yet his unconscionable behavior — butchering civilians in Syria and Ukraine, annexing Crimea, computer-hacking American government agencies, crushing dissent at home — suggests that the furthest thing from his mind is becoming a constructive partner in the search for peace.

This in America's paper of record. A liberal paper. A newspaper which less than two weeks ago applauded John Kerry's search for cooperation with Russia.

You are legitimately the only person out of touch. You refuse to hold Russia accountable for it's behavior because it means your cooperative-integration world view is invalid. Wake up. Things are in motion that have terminally undermined what you believe in. That the Times would write something this vicious towards Russia is evidence of this.

[Deleted]

Absolutely.

In 2001 the only near-peer across the table from Russia was the United States. The EU was a half-formed group. China was backwards. Russia was easily the second most powerful country/union in the world. The Russian Federation being then still the relatively recently formed successor state of the Sovet Union, and the legal successor to it's responsibilities and treaties, was treated as a peer. That is why, for example, it was invited to the G7, even though it wasn't technically a major economy.

Today, it may not even be fourth in global power. Today the United States is still the world's only superpower. China and the EU are probably 2 and 3, in some order depending on what we're talking about. Germany alone is probably 4th.

If you don't count Germany because we say EU power and German power are one and the same, that makes Russia 4th in the pecking order. If you count German and EU power as distinct (with some overlap), then that probably makes Russia fifth. In any case regardless, the decline in power is extremely clear. As I've said on many occasions, Russia cannot survive as a major power sandwiched between a rich and successful EU and a powerful China, with the United States above all of them.

In large part, the decline of Russia is only in part due to things that Russia can control. The fact is, a country of 140 million people with a GDP under $2 trillion will not be a power in the way the 500 million person / $17 trillion EU and the 1.2 billion / $10 trillion (although number is probably a fraud) China is. The footprint is just too small. The end.

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Yeah okay. Djalil, because I'm never tired of making you look ridiculous, here is the New York Times Editorial Page, posted an hour ago, pretty much saying exactly what I said.



This in America's paper of record. A liberal paper.

You are legitimately the only person out of touch.

Yeah you go on and quote the new York Times. As reliable as RT on this topic.
I'll just quote reuters reporting junkers saying the following:

Europe must improve its relationship with Russia and should not let this be something decided by Washington, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said on Thursday.

How's that for a humiliating defeat.

[Ausr]

And the accusation of Russia's involvement in Ukraine is based on a picture from Red Alert. GG.

Russia's evidence was based on CoD: MW2.

[Skroe]

Yeah you go on and quote the new York Times. As reliable as RT on this topic.
I'll just quote reuters reporting junkers saying the following:

How's that for a humiliating defeat.

You're a fraud. Want to know how I know this?

Because I googled the quote. Juckner said that... in October 2015.

Nice year of change in direction for Europe there. They've only expanded sanctions and renewed older ones in the interim. Exactly at what point Djalil can we start to expect Jucker's change in direction to... ya know... happen? Maybe by October 2017?

Of course, you knew this when posting, which is why you didn't include a URL. Because you're a phony.

Hows that for a humiliating defeat? Because right now I'm grinning ear to ear laughing my ass off at you. You tried to pull a fast one, and like Wile E. Coyote, got blown up by your own TNT.

I hope people here who engage with Djalil's nonsense on a regular basis just note what sloppy trick this piece of work tried to pull for the sake of being right.

[Ulmita]

Putin is the only hope Syria has. Hopefully they take Aleppo asap.

[Skroe]

Hey look the 27,000 post coward ran when caught.

What a fucking joke. 'til next time, pal.

[Ulmita]

Who cares?, what the hell are you smoking?. You want a nuclear war with Russia over the Ukraine and fucking syria?. I don't give .00001% about Syria and give about 1/2% of a shit about the Ukraine.

I don't give really a shit man. If separatists shot it down they need to pay. You just don't throw away 300 souls and then start barking about nuclear war.

[caervek]

Hey look the 27,000 post coward ran when caught.

What a fucking joke. 'til next time, pal.

Because you're post has been unopposed for 25 minutes? that's like declaring victory while your opponent is asleep lol.