Restos: Tell me about Haste

[Deleted]

I want that Regrowth to Crit for sure.

Abundance Talent

For each Rejuvenation you have active, the cast time of Healing Touch is reduced by 10%, and the critical effect chance of Regrowth is increased by 10%.

Shouldn't be hard . Grind that living seed to 1 million HP, if you can.

[Weissrolf]

Here are some numbers: I robbed my bank and bag to do two specific equipment builds, one for Haste and one for Mastery, then I added the weights from Tomali's Resto guide as a more real build. Out of all the equipment I have available I got the following stats (no enchantments, no gems). This is what my character can wear in practice with the stuff I own in reality (Mastery build adds some leech on top of it).

The symbiosis with Crit is interesting. The Mastery build gets bigger crits, because single ticks are bigger. The Haste build has a higher chance for crits, because the number of ticks are higher per cast.

Haste build

Intellect 29508
Critical Strike 13.71%
Haste 30.90%
Mastery 9.32%
Versatility 2.84%

Mastery build

Intellect 29411
Critical Strike 14.32%
Haste 7.22%
Mastery 20.82%
Versatility 5.29%

Tomali's guide build

Intellect 29810
Critical Strike 24.05%
Haste 22.54%
Mastery 10.73%
Versatility 0.00%


1x Rejuvenation

Haste: 210k
Mastery: 200k
Tomali: 198k

Haste (3x crit): 282k
Mastery (3x crit): 280k
Tomali (3x crit): 269k

Efflorescence

Haste: 420k (19 + 1 ticks)
Mastery: 351k (16 + 1 ticks)
Tomali: 386k (18 + 1 ticks)

Quite shocking, a 3 ticks difference between the two extreme builds!

Efflorescence + Spring Blossoms

Haste: 457k + 124k = 581k
Mastery: 420k + 139k = 559k
Tomali: 425k + 124k = 549k

The Haste build wins for these, especially with the unempowered Efflorescence, a little less so with the empowered Efflorescence. I did not read/calculate exact numbers for Efflorescence + Spring Blossoms + Rejuvenation, but here are numbers for Rejuvenation when you combine these. One the circle + rejuv stacks Mastery is pushed considerably.

1x Rejuvenation (+Spring Blossom)

Haste: 229k
Mastery: 234k
Tomali: 217k

The build from Tomali's guide is in a strange place here. One could argue that it should be more balanced, because it uses actual stat weights, instead of what I used in the extreme builds (0 on everything except Int + Haste or Mastery). That doesn't keep it from winning the AMR "Single Run" simulation, though (Tomali: 369k hps, Mastery: 361k hps, Haste: 354k hps).

[Deleted]

Here are some numbers:

with close to nothing to show what playing with a mastery build should be.

As usual, just a throw your spell where you can, playstyle.

[Weissrolf]

But on purpose showing numbers for Rejuv and Efflo + Spring Blossom, because that combination quickly also likes Mastery eventhough it fits a Haste playstyle.

The whole point became mostly academic in our raid today. We are at least half a healer too many for nomal raiding and the other druid is spamming Rejuv + Germination all over the raid. So I switched talents to Cenarion Ward, 2 minutes Tranquility and also tried Cultivation for the fun of it. From there on I concentrated on tank and emergency healing, plus plugging the hole where raid members didn't already have HoTs on them. Will have to look through the log to see what did what.

[Alltat]

I don't know about others raid enviroments, but we are a small raid, typically less than 15 members, closer to 10.

Most people here run bigger raids and assume that everyone else does too. Mythic is locked at 20, and heroic guilds that are even looking in the general direction of mythic will have raid teams of 15-25. It was like that in MoP and earlier too, when 25H was "fancier" than 10H. This can sometimes make discussions here a bit weird, because there are things that work quite well in a smaller raid that work much less well in a bigger raid.

One notable such thing is mastery stacking, simply because people don't really have more than one or two of your HoTs on them in a large raid. Wild Growth is mostly not going to hit people with Rejuvenation when there are 20+ targets. Standing in Efflorescence will not in any way guarantee that you have Spring Blossoms. Your Lifebloom target probably won't have anything other than a Rejuvenation. The HoTs from your clearcast Regrowths will be scattered and unlikely to interact with anything. Everything except Tranquility is target capped and is going to be spread across a lot of people, making mastery largely worthless and very unpredictable.

Is the little bit of intellect really that much more important? This is honestly the first time I've seen someone say the ilevel is more important than the secondary stat.

Most stat weight lists include intellect. It's the most valuable stat, but it's not infinitely valuable, so take it into consideration when doing your calculations. Intellect is king, but on rare occasions the king can be overthrown by the peasant stats.

[Weissrolf]

I tried a Crit build yesterday, but the results where less than stelar. The most interesting bit was that the other Druid healer who uses a Haste build (Critical Strike 12.77%, Haste 21.13%, Mastery 15.73%) with Germination (11 people raid) had 25% stronger Swiftmend casts. In retrospec this isn't surprising, because she kept 2 Rejuvs rolling on the tanks and herself (+some raid), which in turn activated her Mastery for Swiftmend. Her Regrowths casts were nearly 150% stronger.

Overall this seems to confirm what I feared would happen with Resto healing in Legion: Rejuv intensive (I call it spamming) play styles seem to be encouraged and rewarded. By the time that I had cast 389 Rejuvs she had cast 985, albeit I was somewhat testing around and mostly filling holes that the other 2 healers left open. Still, her Rejuv + Germ amounted to 46% of her total healing over the three boss encounters that I've logged and she topped healing doing 25% of all healing done. So it really worked out for her.

I mean, wow, 46% Rejuv "spamming" and that even improved her other spells considerably. Not exactly the play-style that I was hoping for.

[theburned]

Most people here run bigger raids and assume that everyone else does too. Mythic is locked at 20, and heroic guilds that are even looking in the general direction of mythic will have raid teams of 15-25. It was like that in MoP and earlier too, when 25H was "fancier" than 10H. This can sometimes make discussions here a bit weird, because there are things that work quite well in a smaller raid that work much less well in a bigger raid.

One notable such thing is mastery stacking, simply because people don't really have more than one or two of your HoTs on them in a large raid. Wild Growth is mostly not going to hit people with Rejuvenation when there are 20+ targets. Standing in Efflorescence will not in any way guarantee that you have Spring Blossoms. Your Lifebloom target probably won't have anything other than a Rejuvenation. The HoTs from your clearcast Regrowths will be scattered and unlikely to interact with anything. Everything except Tranquility is target capped and is going to be spread across a lot of people, making mastery largely worthless and very unpredictable.



Most stat weight lists include intellect. It's the most valuable stat, but it's not infinitely valuable, so take it into consideration when doing your calculations. Intellect is king, but on rare occasions the king can be overthrown by the peasant stats.

I dont know what build you are running, but most people are running cultivation nowadays, and with cultivation most healed targets apart from tranq generally has 2 hots on them or are not in dire need of healing. the exception ofc being the wild growth targets, with spring blossoms that adds another 0.5 hots to people, im not suggesting that you should stack mastery by any means, but it should be one of our stronger stats at this point. And due to low versatility values that should also be moved up towards a higher value.

[Weissrolf]

Why do you count Spring Blossoms only as 0.5 HoT?

[thunderbuff]

Haste (3x crit): 282k
Mastery (3x crit): 280k
Tomali (3x crit): 269k

Could you clarify this portion? I am assuming here that you put in the total amount healed by 1 cast of the Hot where 3 of the ticks were crit.

If that is so, then you are not making an apple to apple comparison, because Tomali's build will regularly crit more often that the other 2 builds. By capping the number of crits to 3 per cast, you would be negating the main source of benefit of his build.

[theburned]

Why do you count Spring Blossoms only as 0.5 HoT?

Because generally it applies 1 extra stack of mastery to half the raid, thus you 50% of the time have 1 extra on each person.

[Weissrolf]

Could you clarify this portion? I am assuming here that you put in the total amount healed by 1 cast of the Hot where 3 of the ticks were crit.

If that is so, then you are not making an apple to apple comparison, because Tomali's build will regularly crit more often that the other 2 builds. By capping the number of crits to 3 per cast, you would be negating the main source of benefit of his build.

I just wanted to demonstrate how Crit changes the numbers away for each stat. 3 crits for a single Rejuv is already on the high end of things, usually you get 0-2.

The symbiosis with Crit is more complex anyway:

Haste increases the number of ticks, thus the chance to get a crit, for a single cast that is. Mastery increases the outcome of each crit, because single ticks start at a higher value and thus crit for a higher value. Crit increases the chance to get more crits per single cast, but you need many cast/ticks to reliably average this out, which in turn is an argument for more Haste.

What Haste does here is increase the reliability of each single HoT (!) to get crits, it lowers the RNG of crits on HoT (only). What Mastery does here to increase the value of each crit, but it also increases the danger of overhealing. What Crit does here is to flat out increase the chance of crits on all spells (including non HoTs and damage), but not (!) the reliability (you can get 3 crits on one spell and none on another).

[theburned]

I just wanted to demonstrate how Crit changes the numbers away for each stat. 3 crits for a single Rejuv is already on the high end of things, usually you get 0-2.

The symbiosis with Crit is more complex anyway:

Haste increases the number of ticks, thus the chance to get a crit, for a single cast that is. Mastery increases the outcome of each crit, because single ticks start at a higher value and thus crit for a higher value. Crit increases the chance to get more crits per single cast, but you need many cast/ticks to reliably average this out, which in turn is an argument for more Haste.

What Haste does here is increase the reliability of each single HoT (!) to get crits, it lowers the RNG of crits on HoT (only). What Mastery does here to increase the value of each crit, but it also increases the danger of overhealing. What Crit does here is to flat out increase the chance of crits on all spells (including non HoTs and damage), but not (!) the reliability (you can get 3 crits on one spell and none on another).

the symbiosis of any stats is not particularly and can usually be simplified to exponential growth is way faster than additive growth. Basically (1+x/n)^n > 1+x very simplified as stat weights skew this up quite a bit, but even versatility overtakes cheaper stats like crit at roughly 3.3k stat difference.

As far as reliability goes crit increases the reliability, with the massive outlier being at 100% its very reliable, at 80% and you expect it to give you a 100% and roughly 80% increase to your dps (assuming no other crit scaling.) at 10% crit you cant expect 1 out of 10 spells to crit. As with all reliability the further you get from 1 the less reliable it gets, not sure why you would say it is not affected by crit chance.

[Tomali]

Especially as we get to higher gear levels, having a happy medium of stats will be beneficial to rdruids, with more weight onto haste due to HoTs double dipping that secondary (increasing the number of ticks increases the healing and allows for more casts from the gcd).

Secondary stats are dynamic, and play off of each other. Having a point in a secondary stat will make a point in another secondary stat more powerful. This is extremely important to remember. An example of this would be the relation between Crit and Vers. In sims, once you have about 3250 more crit than vers, vers will actually be worth 'more' than additional crit. Rdruids are lucky because we are a class where our stats (discluding haste) are fairly balanced with each other. They will even change priority based on the size of the group you are in, as mastery will increase in value as your group becomes smaller. This is part of the reason why I feel comfortable saying a 10 ilv upgrade on a piece with INT will almost always be an upgrade to healing.

If you really want to make this debate more confusing, remember that straight throughput does not directly relate to increased healing due to other healers sniping healing from you, overheal, and the cap on healing due to mana.

- - - Updated - - -

I also think it's important to remember that if you are debating this to try and improve your healing, and are not parsing @ 95% or higher on the majority of fights you do not overheal, it is unquestionably a better use of your time to look over logs to improve your playstyle.

[lockedout]

it's rare that the whole raid actually stands in your Efflorescence all that much.

Doesn't it only heal 3 people?

[Weissrolf]

It heals 3 people every tick. The specific people can change every tick and the Spring Blossoms HoT keeps rolling for 6 seconds once you got a single tick of Efflorescence (even if you leave the circle). The very first tick of Efflorescence and Rejuvenation do not benefit from Spring Blossoms and Cultivation stacking respectively, because these extra HoTs only apply after the first tick.

On the other hand you do get a HoT stack from Cenarion Ward, which can be quite useful on tanks.

[thunderbuff]

I just wanted to demonstrate how Crit changes the numbers away for each stat. 3 crits for a single Rejuv is already on the high end of things, usually you get 0-2.

The symbiosis with Crit is more complex anyway:

Haste increases the number of ticks, thus the chance to get a crit, for a single cast that is. Mastery increases the outcome of each crit, because single ticks start at a higher value and thus crit for a higher value. Crit increases the chance to get more crits per single cast, but you need many cast/ticks to reliably average this out, which in turn is an argument for more Haste.

What Haste does here is increase the reliability of each single HoT (!) to get crits, it lowers the RNG of crits on HoT (only). What Mastery does here to increase the value of each crit, but it also increases the danger of overhealing. What Crit does here is to flat out increase the chance of crits on all spells (including non HoTs and damage), but not (!) the reliability (you can get 3 crits on one spell and none on another).

However, you cannot compare it that way, Tomali's build will crit more frequently than the other 2 builds. In fact, according to your figures, that build will crit almost twice as often as the other builds, which is a non-trivial amount.

Also, haste does not influence the chance to get a crit. These are all independent factors. What haste does however, is increase the number of ticks, which would increase the absolute number of crits, but the chance of a crit itself is not influenced.

Yes, crit has high variance as you mentioned. However, if you want to theorycraft, you just have to include its throughput in the equation, while putting in an asterix next to it, as it is not quite the same as a flat-out healing increase such as versatility.

[Weissrolf]

Which is why I wrote that haste increase the chance to crit "per single cast" of a HoT. In practice that matters mostly for Wild Growth, 3 ticks difference in my extreme builds = 3 more chances to crit for the Haste build. But the single ticks of WG are rather small, so are the crits then, while Rejuv ticks are much bigger. On the other hand Rejuv and Lifebloom tend to be close to 100% uptime on the tanks anyway, aka there hardly is a "single cast" in practice other than the odd raid member.

For any spells without many ticks (or none at all) Crit is very unreliable, except for Regrowth with its huge Crit bonus. My last raid log underlines that by showing lowest crits out 27% on Swiftmend (19%), Tranquility (23.8%) and Dreamwalker (25%). On the other hand my 17 Healing Touch casts critted for 41.2%, which is great but pure chance. All other spells critted close to the 27% of my Crit stat.

One point worth mentioning is that Haste increases our DPS for dots and lowers cast time (+increased energy regen in cat form), Crit increases DPS for everything (including cat's Shred and Solar Wrath), but Mastery does *nothing* for DPS.

Then there is Versatility, which seems to get swept under the rug in all these discussions (Leaf's WA doesn't even give it points). That's a bit strange, because the stat difference between Haste and Crit is the same as between Crit and Vers, but except for specific crit based mechanics that do not apply to Resto druids I would think that Vers is preferable to Crit.

[thunderbuff]

Which is why I wrote that haste increase the chance to crit "per single cast" of a HoT. In practice that matters mostly for Wild Growth, 3 ticks difference in my extreme builds = 3 more chances to crit for the Haste build. But the single ticks of WG are rather small, so are the crits then, while Rejuv ticks are much bigger. On the other hand Rejuv and Lifebloom tend to be close to 100% uptime on the tanks anyway, aka there hardly is a "single cast" in practice other than the odd raid member.

For any spells without many ticks (or none at all) Crit is very unreliable, except for Regrowth with its huge Crit bonus.

One point worth mentioning is that Haste increases our DPS for dots (only), Crit increases DPS for everything (including cat's Shred and Solar Wrath), but Mastery does *nothing* for DPS. Versatility does it all, too, of course.

Well, you could simply multiply the healing done per cast by the crit chance, without complicating matters.

[Weissrolf]

Well, you could simply multiply the healing done per cast by the crit chance, without complicating matters.

But that's not how it works in practice and I am mostly concerned about practice. When I put a single heal cast on a raid member then I cannot trust in Crit at all. For a single Rejuv it can be anywhere between 0 to 3 crits, which in turn can be a huge difference. And as we saw before, the more crits you get per single cast the stronger Mastery becomes (single ticks are bigger, so are crits then). This can only be offset by Haste if you get more ticks out of the single cast.

It's even worse for non HoT casts, where the difference between a critted Healing Touch or Regrowth and a non critted one are 100%. There is a reason why so many people liked to use the Regrowth glyph to make sure it reliably critted at 100%. It's all about "control" over what your heals do, in contrast to relying on luck/dice/odds.

[thunderbuff]

But that's not how it works in practice and I am mostly concerned about practice. When I put a single heal cast on a raid member then I cannot trust in Crit at all. For a single Rejuv it can be anywhere between 0 to 3 crits, which in turn can be a huge difference. And as we saw before, the more crits you get per single cast the stronger Mastery becomes (single ticks are bigger, so are crits then). This can only be offset by Haste if you get more ticks out of the single cast.

It's even worse for non HoT casts, where the difference between a critted Healing Touch or Regrowth and a non critted one are 100%. There is a reason why so many people liked to use the Regrowth glyph to make sure it reliably critted at 100%. It's all about "control" over what your heals do, in contrast to relying on luck/dice/odds.

Yea, but there's no end as all the factors influence each other. That is why relative value of other stats increase once you get too much of a single stat. However, to make meaningful comparisons, you either need to hold all other stats constant, and vary one to see how it impacts, or run a powerful simulation which basically varies all stats, to figure out the sweet spot. This was alot more relevant in the past when we could still reforge, making stat weights less relevant now than ever.

Also, saying that Mastery gets stronger when you get more crit doesn't really add anything, as mastery also gets stronger if you get more versatility, int and haste as well. That's the whole point.

Also, we have to factor in living seed which is a compensating factor to reduce the variance of crits. Anyway, it would ultimately be boring if everything was a flat out +healing increase like in the early expacs, and crit was seldom a choice, but a by-product of the intel stat. Ultimately, it would be difficult to quantify how the variance of crits ultimately impacts the outcome of a raid, with so many heals being tossed around, but my suspicions are that it probably does not matter that much.