Fire Mage trash DPS/AoE help.

[Aerowyn]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to start this topic off with a thank you to anyone who invests time and effort into answering my question. Now to be specific, I am playing a Fire Mage on and off in Legion alongside my main and I am keeping it as up to date as my schedule allows. I will include all character details at the bottom for anyone who wants to look at the character directly, as well as a general overview of iLvL and stats. The big problem I am facing is my "par for the course" or "basic" AoE DPS is absolutely abysmal, I can barely hold 200-210k during most AoE trash packs in Mythic+ dungeons, which is making me quite a liability for the group when I do bring the Mage and I know that Fire Mages are infact capable of pulling proper and considerable DPS on trash packs.

My current priority for trash packs will depend on the size, but on small scale AoE fests where I struggle most I do the following:

-Keep up Living Bomb on cooldown
-Dragonsbreath if the add pack allows for it
-Cast Pyro/Flamestrike (FS with 4+ adds) with Hot Streak
-Fireblast/Phoenix Flames when I have Heating Up (Phoenix Flames I try to use as much as I can while saving 2 for upcoming bosses due to the natural "splash")
-Spam Fireball to fish for Heating Up procs

I am running these talents:

Pyromaniac (I understand Conflageration is better for AoE DPS and can change this if it would help significantly but I prefer Pyromaniac for bosses)
Shimmer
Rune of Power
Flame On
Ice Floes
Living Bomb
Kindling (I am not sure if Kindling is worth it, I do enjoy the play style it brings but it might be sub optimal)

My current iLvL is 843 and my stats are at the following values:
Crit 51.10% (8786)
Haste 4.98% (1619)
Mastery 17.57% (5401)

I have 2 terrible Flat Stat trinkets from world quests, one giving Intellect and flat Mastery, the other Intellect and flat Versatility (terrible I know).

Unfortunately I have no logs to share as I have not directly brought the Mage to Emerald Nightmare yet, however as this isn't directly about boss DPS I am not sure if it would be helpful in the first place.

Here is a "link" to my armory profile (Sorry I don't post enough to provide an actual link): eu . battle . net/wow/en/character/kazzak/Astralilly/simple

Edit=Adjusting crit values from listed armory value to in-game displayed value.

[HTowN]

Your crit is way too low. That's the biggest problem.

And for AoE, use Confag, not Pyromaniac.

[Deleted]

Dont flamestrike unless it's like 7-8 adds and that will bring you up a ton, keep living bomb up aswell at all times

[Deleted]

Don't use Flamestrike if there aren't 8+ mobs present.
Use Fireball+Pyro combos to get a high Ignite going instead.
Living Bomb on CD, Dragon's Breath when you can afford to get close to the mobs.

Also, use your RoP whenever you can. It has a very low CD.

Edit: Also, when it comes to AoE, Cinderstorm is king, hands down.

[M1r4g3]

-remove flamestrike from your bars (its useless in the majority of dungeons, basically 1-3 pulls that are worth using it on with 8+ targets)
-you want to RoP on almost every pull except the one right before a boss so you can have 2 charges up for the boss (and obviously skip using it if its a pack that dies in less than 15sec)
-combust on larger trash pulls (3+targets) up until around 2-3 pulls before the boss so you can have it up by then
-use living bomb on cd
-dragon's breath if you're close(tho i prefer using it as an aoe interrupt)
-do your normal single target rotation to stack dat ignite(phoenix flame/flame on etc. on cd also until 1-2 packs before the boss)
this is with kindling, if you're using cinderstorm you should combust even earlier(tho i prefer kinding, positioning for cinderstorm is sometimes meh)
Also conflageration is a lot better for dungeons than pyromaniac, the single target difference is pretty negligible between the two.

[Deleted]

-remove flamestrike from your bars (its useless in the majority of dungeons, basically 1-3 pulls that are worth using it on with 8+ targets)
-you want to RoP on almost every pull except the one right before a boss so you can have 2 charges up for the boss (and obviously skip using it if its a pack that dies in less than 15sec)
-combust on larger trash pulls (3+targets) up until around 2-3 pulls before the boss so you can have it up by then
-use living bomb on cd
-dragon's breath if you're close(tho i prefer using it as an aoe interrupt)
-do your normal single target rotation to stack dat ignite(phoenix flame/flame on etc. on cd also until 1-2 packs before the boss)
this is with kindling, if you're using cinderstorm you should combust even earlier(tho i prefer kinding, positioning for cinderstorm is sometimes meh)
Also conflageration is a lot better for dungeons than pyromaniac, the single target difference is pretty negligible between the two.

this is pretty much spot on, altho the stuff ive underlined is sorta kinda true, it depends on the situation, if the pack lives for a long time then you use pyroblast but if the pack is short lived you use FS, to say to only use FS on 8+ targets period is to not factor in all the various situations you can get in, a boss like il'gynoth is a perfect example bcoz it has adds that die fast and adds that die slow and they all for the most part need to get aoe'd down, so in those situations you need to be a bit more diverse in the way you aoe stuff, you'd need to wing it a bit more, question yourself if you have the time to get a big ignite on your main target and if that ignite has the time to spread and deal its full dmg on the targets, if it do, then you pyro, if it doesnt then you FS, either way, it does feel like FS is a bit undertuned if a St spell is mostly prefered over an actual aoe spell.

personally, i get better results with using FS on 3+ targets but that might just be bcoz of the aoe burst'y nature of the spell and the fact that i have the dragon's breath legendary, i can definately see pyroblast'ing being the way to go in places like high mythic+ and most raiding situations depending on what is needed.

[sosaria]

The rotation I'm using for Mythic+ and raid AOE is:

Living Bomb, ROP, Phoenix Flames, Fireblast, Flamestrike, Phoenix Flames, Fireblast, Flamestrike, Dragon's breath; then normal fireball+pyro rotation, while keeping living bomb off cooldown.

On really big AOE pulls, I will also sometimes use Flame On to refresh FireBlast and use my last Phoenix Flames.

You need the Aftershocks and Phoenix Flame CD reduction unlocked.

Conflag talent is also used.

Always coming up top DPS in Mythic+ runs and near top for raiding trash AOE. (I switch back to single target talents during boss pulls though).

[Deleted]

The rotation I'm using for Mythic+ and raid AOE is:

Living Bomb, ROP, Phoenix Flames, Fireblast, Flamestrike, Phoenix Flames, Fireblast, Flamestrike, Dragon's breath; then normal fireball+pyro rotation, while keeping living bomb off cooldown.

On really big AOE pulls, I will also sometimes use Flame On to refresh FireBlast and use my last Phoenix Flames.

You need the Aftershocks and Phoenix Flame CD reduction unlocked.

Conflag talent is also used.

Always coming up top DPS in Mythic+ runs and near top for raiding trash AOE. (I switch back to single target talents during boss pulls though).

Flamestrike is useless. Just focus your pyros on the toughest target, use combustion and RoP on cooldown and you'll be fine. When combustion is on cooldown, you use RoP anyway and treat your casts as if combustion was up. Ergo, cast PF, FB and PB without fireballs.

[Clovedoper]

Also use living bomb on the adds that most likely will die first (faster spread&no wasted bomb)

[Deleted]

Flamestrike is useless. Just focus your pyros on the toughest target, use combustion and RoP on cooldown and you'll be fine. When combustion is on cooldown, you use RoP anyway and treat your casts as if combustion was up. Ergo, cast PF, FB and PB without fireballs.

flamestrike is hardly useless, it just highly depends on the situation whether you use FS or pyro.

[Kanariya]

Your biggest problem is using Pyromaniac over Conflagaration. Conflag is less than 1% behind Pyro on pure single target (0 fights in Legion), and pulls ahead exponentially with each additional target you add to the fight. Kindling isn't helping you out on trash at all either, Cinderstorm is better, and if you have Pyretic Incantation talented, you can abuse it at the beginning of Combustion to knock those stacks up.

[brok3nh3lix]

Your biggest problem is using Pyromaniac over Conflagaration. Conflag is less than 1% behind Pyro on pure single target (0 fights in Legion), and pulls ahead exponentially with each additional target you add to the fight. Kindling isn't helping you out on trash at all either, Cinderstorm is better, and if you have Pyretic Incantation talented, you can abuse it at the beginning of Combustion to knock those stacks up.

Kindling is fine for trash., it gives you more uses of combustion throughout the dungeon.you should be using combustion on trash, not just bosses.

[BiggestNoob]

Flamestrike is useless.

No it's not. Stop with this meme.

Kindling is fine for trash., it gives you more uses of combustion throughout the dungeon.you should be using combustion on trash, not just bosses.

Cinderstorm is substantially better because bosses won't last long enough for an extra Combustion (unless +10 with Tyrannical) and Cinderstorm massively outperforms extra Combustions on trash.

[Deleted]

Cinderstorm is substantially better because bosses won't last long enough for an extra Combustion (unless +10 with Tyrannical) and Cinderstorm massively outperforms extra Combustions on trash.

while i do agree, there is definately instances where kindling is better, personally i like kindling over cinderstorm due to how cinderstorm works, its much less of a hassle in comparison, also kindling does allow you to use combust more often on trash and when you can then the burst you get from it far exceeds cinderstorm and definately can and will give you an extra combust on bosses , i guess it depends on how you play and what you prefer.

[BiggestNoob]

while i do agree, there is definately instances where kindling is better, personally i like kindling over cinderstorm due to how cinderstorm works, its much less of a hassle in comparison, also kindling does allow you to use combust more often on trash and when you can then the burst you get from it far exceeds cinderstorm and definately can and will give you an extra combust on bosses , i guess it depends on how you play and what you prefer.

No, Cinderstorm will do more on trash packs overall than extra Combustions, and you'll always have a Combustion for boss pulls. You need them to last 80-90 seconds to get another Combustion on a boss and you're not going to see that outside of +10 or if there's lots of RP. The last boss in BRH has enough time to get another Combustion, but at high pluses you get 2 Combustions anyway due to the intermissions, and there's a ton of trash in the instance making Cinderstorm significantly better.

There's no room for preference, there's a clear winner in the performance category.

[Deleted]

No it's not. Stop with this meme.



Cinderstorm is substantially better because bosses won't last long enough for an extra Combustion (unless +10 with Tyrannical) and Cinderstorm massively outperforms extra Combustions on trash.

Useless, considering considering the circumstances. E.G. less than 8 mobs.

[Deleted]

Cinderstorm is substantially better because bosses won't last long enough for an extra Combustion (unless +10 with Tyrannical)

That's a stupid statement considering not only some bosses can use two combustions with Kindling if crit is high enough, albeit rare, but most importantly you completely ignored there that 5mans do not only have bosses. Bosses are the least of the issue. Without kindling, for a lot of the time you have to either have no combustion at all on a boss or on a trash pack before a boss, or to lose dps by holding on to it.

[BiggestNoob]

Useless, considering considering the circumstances. E.G. less than 8 mobs.

No. This was a meme caused by some horribly misinformed person on the beta (I don't recall, was it Furty's original Icy Veins guide or something?, I'm too lazy to track down where it came from).

Furty's Guide, Noxxic, and Rinoa's guide all agree on 4+ and the math indicates 3 is technically a DPS increase (it's marginal, so Heating Up from Pyroblast is better if you have FBs or PFs to generate Hot Streaks), which is why two of those guides say 3+.

Nearly every pull in mythic+ dungeons are going to be 4-6 targets if your tank isn't a lil bitch, so Flamestrike is one of your primary abilities, and yes it's up there competing with Conflag/Ignite, while generating far more Ignite damage than Pyroblasts would.

That's a stupid statement considering not only some bosses can use two combustions with Kindling if crit is high enough, albeit rare, but most importantly you completely ignored there that 5mans do not only have bosses. Bosses are the least of the issue. Without kindling, for a lot of the time you have to either have no combustion at all on a boss or on a trash pack before a boss, or to lose dps by holding on to it.

You'll always have combustion for bosses even without Kindling and do significantly more trash DPS with Cinderstorm. This isn't an argument for Kindling.

[Deleted]

I'd like to see logs that show you can easily pull 6Xall targets on trash packs. Those hitboxes are small and it's almost never possible to hit them all, so the question is how many you missed. But that's the least of the issue here. Kindling has a mechanical/utility advantage. It brings combustion more often. It's a timings advantage. 2 minute cooldowns are awkward in this game in many encounter designs and almost all 5man parts are that kind of design.

[BiggestNoob]

I'd like to see logs that show you can easily pull 6Xall targets on trash packs. Those hitboxes are small and it's almost never possible to hit them all, so the question is how many you missed. But that's the least of the issue here. Kindling has a mechanical advantage. It brings combustion more often. It's a timings advantage. 2 minute cooldowns are awkward in this game in many encounter designers and almost all 5man portions are that.

The bosses all die in under 60 seconds, and you can hit most targets with 5-6 cinders, even on large trash pulls.

More Combustions doesn't matter when they provide less DPS than Cinderstorm. You can reliably Cinderstorm all trash all the time, and Combustion for large pulls and still Combustion on every boss. The point isn't to be in Combustion as much as possible, it's to do as much damage as possible.