Is dalaran a better city now Jaina's gone?

[Koryn123]

Like what? Rebuilding Silvermoon doesnt make him a good mage. Aethas has never done anything to demonstrate his skill as a mage. Dath'remar was a Night Elf who founded Silvermoon. Anasterian's only contribution was dying to Arthas.

The average Blood Elf knows more than the average human, sure. Most humans dont know anything about magic. But when it comes to powerful mage users, almost all of them are human.

Anasterian held his own against Arthas longer than anyone, and only lost because he was old and frail. On the purely magical side of things, he single-handedly destroyed the enormous bridge of ice that Arthas was creating to cross the large channel between Silvermoon and Quel'Danas. He did that with a huge crazy powerful fireball type thing.

Rommath rebuilt Silvermoon and reclaimed Eversong Woods from the Scourge overnight with just a handful of magi. He was Kael'thas' right-hand man from the Scourge invasion up until Kael'thas' betrayal in BC. And Rommath also discovered how to channel stolen Light from M'uru. I'd say that's pretty advanced stuff.

Aethas held up a huge bubble shield around Dalaran in the Mage manga to protect the city from attacking Blue Dragonflight, shown to be on the same level as Rhonin and Modera, who were doing the same.

Jaina has been the one in charge of a bunch of other humans. K, I guess that counts as being a master mage somehow? She's set fire to a giant scarecrow wickerman thing outside Lordaeron during Hallow's End as a teenager. She was a student of Antonidas, though you consider Rommath to not be proficient despite being highly valued by Kael'thas, so her being Antonidas' pupil doesn't count either then. She can teleport and make portals like all mages can. She can throw a spell in a fiery burst of anger, then have it be lazily waved off by Thalen Songweaver like it was nothing. She can steal a very powerful artifact and have it do all her work for her, only to be held back by Thrall. She can violate her neutrality by warding an Alliance base against Horde infiltration and personally kill any Horde who tried to get around her wards to get the WMD she was protecting for the Alliance. She can apparently walk into a room, murder 6 master Blood Elven archmagi bodyguards (meaning they're specifically focused in magical combat) before any of them can even fire off one spell at her or her slow-casting water elemental, so I guess that's something we just have to pretend makes sense because Blizzard tells us to. She can teleport bewildered innocent Sunreaver civilians just beaten senseless by a rabid Silver Covenant brute squad into her magical prison, so that's impressive, I guess. She can steal Lei Shen's magic after he's dead and infuse it into the already very powerful staff of her former instructor.

But I guess fury of a 30-year old woman who considers herself scorned because someone she'd been helping someone else kill for years before attacking on her own for a year finally had enough and wiped her legitimate military target off the map trumps hundreds/thousands of years of magical study.


I may be mistaken, but isn't Khadgar only as strong as he is because Medivh transferred some of his power to him during the Life Drain in WC1 a la Voldemort making Harry a horcrux? I was under the impression that that's the only reason he was so powerful, enough so to lead the Alliance Expedition to Outland despite being like, what, 20 at the time, just in an older body that was given lots of magic power from Medivh by accident?

He's also got Atiesh though, so that's a big boost, I'm sure.


I don't think Jaina being the leader of a non-magical nation necessarily adds any points in the magic power category. Nor does being leader of Dalaran after a trumped up "prophecy" that Blizzard threw out the window after only, what, an in-lore year? Year and a half?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Where is it stated that he rebuilt the city using only magic by himself?

Not by himself, But he taught the other magisters how to help him do it.

Guardians dont count because reasons?

Guardians literally have the power of multiple mages flowing through them. To say they are just a mage doesn't do what they are justice.

You spout about Rommath one of the greatest mages in existence all the time, but what has he DONE to show that? Rebuilt Silvermoon? You could say the same thing about the Kirin Tor and Dalaran, which is an even greater feat because its flying? All he does is sit in Silvermoon and whine about how the Kirin Tor betrayed the Blood Elves.

Hes the right hand/ 2nd in command of the Goverment of Quel'thalas. Whenever he does leave Silvermoon, its because of his people.

he taught Blood elves how to sustain themselves, the figured out how to siphon from the Naruu and convinced Liadrin to form the Blood knights. There is more story to him than most of the council of 6.

[Deleted]

Guardians literally have the power of multiple mages flowing through them. To say they are just a mage doesn't do what they are justice.

And every Blood Elf Mage has the Sunwell, a power he never earned himself. So...?

[Raetary]

Silvermoon DID get blown up once

when please?
the scourge ruined the city but it never blew up.

[Koryn123]

You spout about Rommath one of the greatest mages in existence all the time, but what has he DONE to show that? Rebuilt Silvermoon? You could say the same thing about the Kirin Tor and Dalaran, which is an even greater feat because its flying? All he does is sit in Silvermoon and whine about how the Kirin Tor betrayed the Blood Elves.

Rommath and less magi than you could count on one hand reclaiming the ruins of Silvermoon and Quel'danas and Eversong Woods and restoring them to their former glory overnight.

All the surviving Kirin Tor holed up in their bubble shield for anywhere between 2-6 years (4 years between TFT and Vanilla, then another two before WotLK) not having to fight any Scourge for that time, busily rebuilding their one singular city.


Half a country from an undead army overnight by a handful of magi. > One city from broken buildings for 2-6 years by a comparatively enormous group of magi.

Period.

- - - Updated - - -

And every Blood Elf Mage has the Sunwell, a power he never earned himself. So...?

Rommath rebuilt and reclaimed half of Quel'thalas in BC overnight while the Sunwell was no longer a thing.

[Deleted]

Well OP, I don't know, for, in the end, I didn't see how Dalaran was when Jaina was its leader. I saw some members of the Kirin Tor here and there, but not Dalaran.

[Aquamonkey]

And every Blood Elf Mage has the Sunwell, a power he never earned himself. So...?

Unlike the NElves with the Well of Eternity, the H/BElf magi didn't really draw upon the Sunwell to empower their spellcasting. They used it to power their city shield, but that's about it. They consumed the magic of the Sunwell like food, same with non-casters.

[Friendlyimmolation]

And every Blood Elf Mage has the Sunwell, a power he never earned himself. So...?

A basic overview of teh lorez would show you Rommath did the shit he did with no sunwell.

Edit: beaten to it.

[Koryn123]

OP: I think it is a better place without Jaina, yes. It's more magically powerful with the Horde's magi added to its ranks, and serves as a better diplomatic face to the denizens of the Broken Isles with the Horde and Alliance working together in the city. Or at least showing not all people of the races in the two factions are devoted to Genn's petty revenge or Sylvanas' actually good tactical move to try and get the super Val'kyr out of Valarjar where they can't be of any use against the Legion, and use them against the Legion alongside her other Val'kyr. Or have them serve as her normal Val'kyr already do, saving troops from death in a hopeless situation.


Dalaran is more powerful with the Horde's mages working there too. It may be a slight security risk from the viewpoint of any Kirin Tor who are so egocentric that they see the Horde as traitors yet don't believe they're guilty of the same twice now, but we sacrifice security for convenience every day with our technology.

[Tyrealius]

Rommath and less magi than you could count on one hand reclaiming the ruins of Silvermoon and Quel'danas and Eversong Woods and restoring them to their former glory overnight.

All the surviving Kirin Tor holed up in their bubble shield for anywhere between 2-6 years (4 years between TFT and Vanilla, then another two before WotLK) not having to fight any Scourge for that time, busily rebuilding their one singular city.

Half a country from an undead army overnight by a handful of magi. > One city from broken buildings for 2-6 years by a comparatively enormous group of magi.

Period.

- - - Updated - - -

Rommath rebuilt and reclaimed half of Quel'thalas in BC overnight while the Sunwell was no longer a thing.

Well you've got to remember that in the aftermath of Warcraft 3: RoC there were maybe two dozen mages of Dalaran at most and it's likely to have taken them those 6-7 years to rebuild their forces as well as their city to make sure it was heavily warded and protected as well as securing the prisoners in Violet Hold. By comparison Silvermoon was overrun by mostly mindless undead since their Master was otherwise occupied and Kel'Thuzad had already been defeated by then, and they are likely to have had several dozen mages at their command.

[Deleted]

yes, it is better, but I say it only because she betrayed Arthas. typical whore.
oh, there is one more reason, she is a limp wristed cuckoo who could not even sunk orgrimmar. pity that Garrosh didn't send her into rape pits or something where she would wrestle against the dick for the last of her natural life.

she is this 'all teh barn, no teh bite' kind of bitch. put it down already

Infracted.

[Friendlyimmolation]

yes, it is better, but I say it only because she betrayed Arthas. typical whore.
oh, there is one more reason, she is a limp wristed cuckoo who could not even sunk orgrimmar. pity that Garrosh didn't send her into rape pits or something where she would wrestle against the dick for the last of her natural life.

she is this 'all teh barn, no teh bite' kind of bitch. put it down already

Wow.

Just wow.

[Raetary]

Wow.

Just wow.

he's still not in your ignore list?
jin is basically as bad as dankdruid.

[Friendlyimmolation]

he's still not in your ignore list?
jin is basically as bad as dankdruid.

I don't ignore anyone, or I become weak to the stupid when it creeps through

[Faroth]

No individuals. Individual. War Crimes talks about only one Sunreaver agent. And she didn't care about that either way. Jaina didn't give a shit about investigating the situation or anything of the kind, she just tried to abuse her authority as leader of the Council to kick them out and when that failed abused her position to commit ethnic cleansing using foreign troops. All the while being a hypocrite because she broke Dalaran's neutrality first. Funny how you "forgot" these details.

Apparently teleporting people to prison is ethnic cleansing now. Hilarity at its finest.

[Deleted]

A basic overview of teh lorez would show you Rommath did the shit he did with no sunwell.

Edit: beaten to it.

Didn't he used Fel magic at that time?
So, technically he wasn't a mage when he did that. He was a Warlock.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Didn't he used Fel magic at that time?
So, technically he wasn't a mage when he did that. He was a Warlock.

Jaina bound Water elementals to create a tidal-wave , therefore she was a dark Shaman.

[Archmage Khadgar]

Yes. Everything about this situation is better now that Jaina is gone.

Just my unbiased opinion, of course.

[Deleted]

Well, It's kinda easy to be a good leader when shit hits the fan.
You either defeat the enemy and everyone loves you regardless of how crappy your rule was or you fail and noone is left to complain.

Apparently teleporting people to prison is ethnic cleansing now. Hilarity at its finest.

You can't win an argument with merely throwing out punchlines when you stick to the truth.

[Koryn123]

Well you've got to remember that in the aftermath of Warcraft 3: RoC there were maybe two dozen mages of Dalaran at most and it's likely to have taken them those 6-7 years to rebuild their forces as well as their city to make sure it was heavily warded and protected as well as securing the prisoners in Violet Hold. By comparison Silvermoon was overrun by mostly mindless undead since their Master was otherwise occupied and Kel'Thuzad had already been defeated by then, and they are likely to have had several dozen mages at their command.

I read Dalaran's WoWPedia and got some clarification on the timetable: "Despite its hardships, the Kirin Tor refused to abandon their home, however. They returned to the ruins in force months later, destroying those few undead creatures that remained, and reclaimed their city. They erected a glowing dome around the entire city, powerful enough to destroy anyone who touches it, while they worked to rebuild their fallen city."

So we can be certain that they were indeed in their dome shield for 6 years between TFT and WotLK.


Dalaran's population was at least somewhat integrated into Garithos' forces, and it is implied by Rommath that at least Modera and Ansirem were among them. They returned in force as their own body a few months after Garithos left and was mind-controlled by the Dreadlords to serve them in Capital City.

In regards to their numbers, I doubt they had only 24 among their ranks. A great deal of the High Elves alive today outside of Quel'Danil Lodge and Allerian Stronghold are Kirin Tor members, and thus would have had to be so for a long time. Coupled with their small forces outside the dome walking around, consisting of normal footmen and magi, and their small territories in Silverpine Forest, I doubt they had only 24.

The Scourge and Archimonde were strong, and Archimonde did a real number on the city after he was summoned, but this is a city of magi, and thus they had a lot of access to portals and teleportation and whatnot, so a lot of them survived Dalaran's destruction. Enough so that they even felt they could still afford to send expeditions to Karazhan in BC to continue their spying on Medivh's domain and trying to scavenge his secrets.

24 also seems like a bit too high of an estimate for how many Kael'thas sent back to Quel'thalas imo. It took a lot of mana cells to power a portal back to Azeroth powerful enough for people to go through, and it could only be sustained for a short time, so I doubt Kael'thas sent back even that many. I'd estimate no more than 10 including Rommath. When they got back, Rommath and his magi rallied the rest of the magi of Silvermoon and straightened them out to get the Magisters back up and running as an official organization. Rommath showed them what they'd learned in Outland, and the powers they'd gained, demonstrating them by rebuilding Silvermoon overnight, and reclaiming Eversong Woods, "their great magical powers making quick work of the Scourge."


And the Scourge in Quel'thalas were no more mindless than those anywhere else. The Blood Elf 1-20 stuff takes place right at the start of BC, very soon after the Dark Portal opened in the pre-BC event. So Rommath and them must have returned at some point before BC, and Naxxramas fell at the end of Vanilla shortly before the Dark Portal opened, so KT was still very mindful of the Scourge around when Rommath must have returned. And even so, Kel'thuzad may have been the CEO of the Eastern Kingdoms Scourge, but he wasn't the regional manager of the Quel'thalas' branch of Scourge.

The way the power structure outside Northrend went was:

Arthas > Kel'thuzad > Regional lieutenants (Araj the Summoner for Western Plaguelands, Baron Rivendare for Eastern Plaguelands, Dar'Khan Drathir for Quel'thalas, etc.) > Their minions.

Kel'thuzad gave out his orders to his lieutenants, though was likely more involved with the operations of the Eastern Plaguelands as that was where Naxxramas was, but Baron Rivendare was his man on the ground keeping an eye on things there.

With the Lich King's hold on the Scourge, it was relatively simple for Kel'thuzad and his lieutenants to maintain control over their troops, and Dar'Khan in Quel'thalas was no exception. Though the Sunwell Trilogy manga and Blood of the Highborne depicts him as taking orders directly from Arthas most of the time, I can't imagine he wasn't in contact with Kel'thuzad and the rest of the Scourge on some level during this timeframe, as Stratholme is just over the mountain behind Deatholme. Probably have some Nerubian tunnels linking the two or something.


But yeah, so the Scourge in Quel'thalas was not mindless, and even so, Terenas claimed a mindless Scourge would be even more dangerous than one on a leash.

I'd say Rommath and his magi likely arrived some time before Kel'thuzad was defeated, or perhaps even before Vanilla, and that could be when Blood of the Highborne takes place. But even if they had arrived after Kel'thuzad was gone, Dar'Khan and his lieutenants were still directing the Scourge in Quel'thalas.