Future of Shadow Priests

[ysnake]

Hello everyone,
Very long-time lurker here (some 5-6 years), thought I'd start off a topic that is waiting to be made, however eluding the public eye altogether. As we all know, Shadow Priests are due to a change in 7.1, especially looking at Surrender to Madness talent and I thought I'd break down what future we could see for our class and what future I, personally, would love to see.

Current iteration:
As you know, Shadow Priests are currently one of the best, if not the best single-target DPS class, and we have always had a niche of being the ''executors'' of any boss fight, and always had that title in PvP as well. Shadow Priests (for those who might wander around here and are not familiar) are one of the bottom DPS (just above Frost DKs according to sims) without S2M talent. So clearly, the big boy who is currently putting SPriests on the top is that talent, we have all known it on these forums and it has been discussed in length. Without that talent, there would be no incentive to bring a SPriest to any raid group as Blizzard has stated that they are trying to make SPriests as pure of a DPS as they can (occasional Mass Dispel helps on fights like Il'gynoth and Dragons of Nightmare, but that's about it).

Surrender to Madness:
To skip what the talent is, it is both one of the most fun abilities as well as the most annoying ability in the game through several different points of view. The ''fun'' part is just how much fluidity the class gains when used and how fun and ''maddening'' (the best description really) it is when you're at 80+ stacks and knowing that you're one miss-click away from dying, the climb on the DPS meters also feels very fulfilling and rewarding.
The ''bad'' parts are way too many however. From the fact that it is the only talent in our Level 100 tree that is worth taking, to the fact that SPriests are balanced around it, all the way to talent's final blow, which is a literal nail in the coffin.
What I would like to point out is that as much as I love the talent, I would rather see SPriests shine in what they currently have left for them, which brings me to the next point...

Shadow Priest's fluidity:
This is one of the best mechanically engaging classes (yet very simple) that Blizzard put out this expansion (I'm a sucker for Boomkins, so I'd say Boomies get #1), which puts us at #2 on Fluidity scale. Forget about that Mage proc randomness, SPriests are fluid casters and most likely have been made by a completely different team who made Warlocks (shoutout to my Warlock buddies, I feel your pain). As Blizzard stated that they want to make classes who are good at one thing better at that instead of making them jack-of-all-trades, I would very much like if they could transfer this class-design philosophy into what SPriests are really good at now, which is being a fun, straight-up class to play with accepting its weaknesses (very few instants, lack of proper AoE).

Okay, where's the future?
The future lies in the simple fact that, if neglected, SPriests won't be excelling at anything, not that every class needs something to excel at but rather of the current design point of view. SPriests have always been multi-dotting/single-traget lords, they've never been known for their AoE, nor have they been known for being a ''clunky'' class to play.

That would mean that Surrender to Madness has to go as a primary option for removing and reworking the entire Level 100 tree. ''Legacy of the Void'' might be needed for PvP-purposes, which leaves us 2 other talents available. As I hate being the ''class-design'' guy, my best idea would be to put S2M as a baseline ability, with a significant nerf to its insanity generation (25% more insanity generation, like Power Infusion would be just fine) and capping at 70 or so stacks, no death, just a debuff to insanity generation and 3-5 minute cooldown. If S2M is going to stay in the game, this would be the best way to put it in the terms of class fantasy and plays to our ancient role of executors. Whatever the other talents may be, I would like them to even further our fluid gameplay instead of making our class ''clunkier'' or proc-oriented, and (since everyone worries about numbers) I would be fine if SPriests were middle/low pack until the execution phase, where we would shine, but not necessarily take the ''omg 100k above the second guy'' role, rather, fight for the top of the board.

With that, Mythic+ is a pretty big thing now, so everyone is concerned about Shadow Priests performing in that environment. The best thing to do (which would boost specs like Demonology, Shadow, Subtlety, Arcane etc) is to have bosses with additional mechanics or soft enrage timers which a Single-Target spec can only achieve. That way, you would HAVE to bring a good Single-Target spec to ensure a clean run on super-high levels (yes, Fire and Marksman are currently overperforming, but that's a different beast to tackle).

With that, what would you guys like for the SPriest future to bring?

[Video Games]

I went spriest this expansion because I was sick of all the rng they keep piling on the classes. I also thought their dps wouldn't get this out of control and they wouldn't get a nerf. I feel like I made the wrong decision and I should have stuck to mage. At least I have my knaifu.

[Linri]

I went maining shadow this x pack cause I love pvping on them, i knew there was something special about starting off slow in the earlier stages of the artifact tree, but stuck it out, and so far its been awesome.... level 21 currently.

Unsure about the future though, but I think I am definitely loving it so far, even without using Surrendor to Madness

[Djriff]

I've been maining my priest for years now, I swap between all 3 specs fairly often. I'm hoping that they don't completely gimp us, but honestly I have a DPS alt on standby just in case the decide to (needs of the guild ya know). The idea for StM is interesting, I'd say at least 50% with no cap on a 3m CD would be fine, However if StM wasn't a talent and they replaced it with something else like Void Torrent now hits all targets within 20 yards of the primary target it would be a better row IMO.

[Deleted]

I think they really wasted the potential that LoTV had - I feel like they should've combined it with the Void Lord talent or something like that. It's just a passive, as opposed to something that just shortens the time between our VF's.

As for StM - I don't see this talent surviving Legion. We just had EN open and already they are forced to tinker with other aspects of the class just to sort-of balance it.

[Daveydave]

Were bottom of the pack without StM? I thought that we were middle ground. Thats... discouraging to hear. Just got to 110 and was enjoying myself alot.

[carenard]

Were bottom of the pack without StM? I thought that we were middle ground. Thats... discouraging to hear. Just got to 110 and was enjoying myself alot.

ive had no issues without using S2M... sure I could be much higher... but being able to live while missing a button is nice

as long as you aren't playing in some super hardcore guild playing LoTV is completely viable

[Deleted]

ive had no issues without using S2M... sure I could be much higher... but being able to live while missing a button is nice

as long as you aren't playing in some super hardcore guild playing LoTV is completely viable

Well I can´t completely agree with that, no matter in what type of progress you are competing, your performance will be lackluster without StM. In normal raiding this should be no issue but heroic and onwards I cant imagine progress with LotV.

Of course everybody has his own definition of "viable" but I would find playing LotV on for example Xavius HC and then wiping on 5% extremely frustrating if I knew I could double my dps. But as I said, thats completely subjective.

[Woop Woop]

Well I can´t completely agree with that, no matter in what type of progress you are competing, your performance will be lackluster without StM. In normal raiding this should be no issue but heroic and onwards I cant imagine progress with LotV.

Of course everybody has his own definition of "viable" but I would find playing LotV on for example Xavius HC and then wiping on 5% extremely frustrating if I knew I could double my dps. But as I said, thats completely subjective.

I agree, if I knew another class that picked a talent that made them lose 100k+ dps then I simply wouldn't want them in my group. Just as an example. StM is mandatory in raids.

[Coils]

I'm sincerely hoping the changes amount to more than "well, now STM isn't dominant/required," because I agree that simply shifting damage out of that talent wouldn't leave Shadow in a good spot even if the numbers were there.

[Clavicle]

As unpopular as this is going to be, the problem I have with Shadow Priests right now is they have broken the paradigm of "easy to play, hard to master" and become "hard to play, really hard to master".

I have been playing my priest for 12 years, and I was not a young gamer when I started WoW. My reaction time is slowing down, but I can still play my mage fine; but my Shadow Priest, which is the character I am dedicated to, I am struggling with. I am doing okay, but it's bloody hard work, and even running 5-man content isn't as much fun because the concentration level to do anything is so high with a slightly lowered reaction time. I can play other classes for hours and feel fine, but after 2-3 hours on the priest I feel exhausted.

I would be happy being an average player if I was at my best, and prepared to put in the time practising to keep up with people 30 years younger than me who can be as good reflexively. I am happy to be as good on my main with effort as younger people are on their alts; but it doesn't look like this class is designed that way - and that will drive me away from WoW.

I really wonder how the current players who are at their best are going to feel in 15-20 years when they aren't welcome in the 'current' games because they are slowing down; because right now for people my age, who have been gamers all our lives, it sucks.

[Kilee25]

I am very similar.

I got a bit of a "delayed start" in life. Won't go into messy details but I was still in college in my late twenties when wow came out. If things had gone differently, I'm pretty sure I never would've gotten into WoW, but it was a case of right place right time.

I'm coming up on 40 this next year, and this past expansion was the first time I ever really noticed a difference in my reaction speed and my ability to react. I took a break in MoP, and when I came back... Well the game just never felt the same for some reason. I'm still better than (or as good as) 90% of the players I meet, but I can feel that something is different. It takes me longer to learn new strategies and mechanics. It's harder to adapt to things. It's subtle, and if I think back it's been happening for years. But for some reason WoD was the first time it really hit me. Mythic Archimonde really showed me my limits as a player - no, as a human being. I looked at some pictures of myself just before I started playing wow again, and after wod... Physically, sitting and playing the game that intensely every night for such long hours... It feels, and looks, like it's literally killing me... This time around I think I got a bit scared. I had fun in WoD doing mythics, but I'm thinking that was probably my last hurrah...

The game is definitely harder than it has ever been, and this class especially is more brutal than I remember in all of WoW. I think on top of getting older, it's also true that the game was a hell of a lot easier too back when I first started.

Along the way, mostly I've just gotten a lot smarter about how I approach the game. I'm more reliant on addons and macros. I know more about the intricacies of latency and how it affects your potential. I understand the advantages of good computer hardware and how to apply it towards WoW. I can do my own theorycrafting and tailor stats and talents towards my strengths and weaknesses. I definitely have something to show for all that time that I put into the game. And I am honestly a much better player than on the whole than I ever was when young, when I take all of these things into account.

Yet, I still feel diminished, physically. The only way I could ever play such long hours again is if I could quit my job, play the game for a living, and use the extra time to take better care of my health. Yeah, I could probably last a few more expacs if I won the lottery or something and was completely financially independent.

Lol, but if that happened and the only ambition I could come up with was to play WoW all day... Well fuck, you know?

Along with that age has come perspective... Wisdom... The game in general is not the same as it used to be. It just doesn't feel the same. It feels... Hollow. I think I'm just more aware now that it's allowed just fake, an illusion. Distilled escapism. A drug that no longer gets me "high".

Other things matter more now. Career. Family. Sleep - god, I really underestimated how important sleep was.

I think that your answer. Most people will just... wake up one day, and realize it just doesn't matter that much.

And some others, the others, well I wonder if some people just aren't capable of seeing things that way. The elitists, the ones who see everyone as scrubs who aren't trying hard enough, etc... I don't know if they will ever change. They just become old people who still think they are invincible, some people are just wired that way, I think. It extends to every aspect of their lives. I was never that way, not really, even when I was a teenager. There was a time, maybe, when I was 18, but that version of myself died pretty quickly with a series of rough life events... I think some people maybe just aren't presented with those kinds of challenges at the right times in their lives, so that youthful pride and feeling of invincibility just carries through into the rest of their lives. Or perhaps they just are very good at turning a blind eye to failures and shortcomings. Who knows. People are different. The world would be boring if not.

[cthylla]

I'm with you. I'm not the greatest player, but I am far from the worst. I do my homework and practice, but I have barely a thing to show for it on my spriest. She was my main from BC through the beginning of MoP... and then finally I swapped to an affliciton warlock because my numbers were so dismal. I was THRILLED to think not only could I switch back to my first love and be viable... but tentacles and old gods? I about cried with joy.

Between the extremely high skill cap and the removal of the tentacles, I am honestly so bummed that I'm considering dropping out of the raid entirely. Thanks, Blizz.

[Relapses]

I dislike how the devs have pretty much painted the spec into a corner with S2M. I think they initially thought it was a really cool and interesting idea -- and it definitely is the most unique talent Blizzard has ever presented -- but it's impossible to balance the spec around it. The high skillcap and frustrating nature of the spec is also very punishing for players with either poor internet connections or low reaction speeds. I foresee S2M getting a major overhaul at some point in this expansion and likely completely reworked again in the next expansion. Maybe they'll finally listen to its playerbase and just make the spec like it was in FL/DS... it's the reason I personally rolled a SPriest and I still fondly remember playing Shadow back then.

[bonewax]

shadow priest as it stands is a classic example of why you should never balance a class around 1 talent.

[Deleted]

I like the extremely high skill cap aspect. I know it's not for everyone but I am loving it.

However I absolutely hate how forced we are in to taking StM. It should be a basline ability, our own ''hero'' or sorts, our own WoTKL era Bladestorm.

[kalaratic]

do you guys think the S2M nuke is happening this expac? it's kinda weird how on the same page of the hotfix you see "The overall goal of these changes is to buff up some underperforming specs ... without dramatically changing anyone’s playstyle" and then on the spriest changes "However, addressing this further would require significant changes to the spec"

to me the two comments contradict each other and makes me wonder if this something they are going to lightly adjust throughout the expac and then do the big change in 8.0

[Ocedic]

do you guys think the S2M nuke is happening this expac? it's kinda weird how on the same page of the hotfix you see "The overall goal of these changes is to buff up some underperforming specs ... without dramatically changing anyone’s playstyle" and then on the spriest changes "However, addressing this further would require significant changes to the spec"

to me the two comments contradict each other and makes me wonder if this something they are going to lightly adjust throughout the expac and then do the big change in 8.0

Sounded like they would change it in 7.1. They just didn't want to mess with things too much in a hotfix. Patches get a lot more in-depth, and hopefully they will look at Spriests holistically and determine that too much power is concentrated in S2M rather than just nerf S2M and leave Spriests high and dry.

I also hope 7.1 will look at Aff Locks, for example, who have a broken artifact weapon that relies on on-kill mechanics that synergized with a system that existed in beta but not anymore. Brewmasters are also broken mechanically.

There's just a lot of things that need to be fixed that can't be solved with just some number tweaks. Shadowpriest S2M scaling is broken, but without S2M it's very underwhelming.

[MasterHamster]

There's little doubt that S2M is going to be either changed until it's not worth taking, or removed alltogether at some point in the expansion. While interesting, S2M is fundamentally broken, and I'm surprised Blizzard even let it onto live.

While they're pushing class fantasy, there will come a time when S2M scales completely out of control, to the point where it cannot be even balanced within the confines of its users when it comes to gear. When players hit a certain gear threshold and S2M just obliterates anything. Which then warrants changes, that risks making it unuseable or not worth using at lower gear levels.

In short, it's a talent that is either completely powerless (you missclick, or get knocked back in that 0.2 second window when you cant recover) or brokenly overpowered.

Blizzard needs to remove S2M now, re-think the entire lvl 100 talent tier, and also figure out how to make Shadow at least possible to play in PvE that is anything but raid boss progression.

Make Shadow Word Death apply a "baseline" S2M that doesn't scale more than maybe 15 stacks, not kill you, but buff goes away if your insanity is completely drained. Shadow can keep their "execute master fantasy" without a broken all-in talent.

[spiritsurge]

I really hate Surrender to Madness, it was pretty cool for a little bit but that went away fairly quickly. Not being able to use it for open world content, not being worth using in dungeons aside from Mythic, are pretty big drawbacks especially when the other talents in that row flat out suck.

Even in raids I hate it, it's a really cool ability but feeling irrelevant on most bosses until 30% isn't exactly a good feeling especially if it's a boss you're consistently wiping on before execute phase. You're a god for a short period of time but for the majority of playtime as shadow it feels lackluster.

"I can't wait until we get to execute range so I can have fun" is a thought i've had a few times when raiding as shadow. Which you can make the argument to get a better guild but I think the majority of players are at this point frequently when raiding.