Hey Blizzard I fixed Outlaw. :)

[ymirsson]

Why would it feel better to have 2 buffs then 1, if 2 is the new lowest possible? Your whole pile of ideas is simply catering to the whining of people not understanding the scope and theme of the outlaw spec.

[Sinbad101]

Strange, given how many Outlaw rogues I tend to see over the other 2 specs, I kind of assumed people though Outlaw was pretty good. What really makes it broken? The reasons you list could almost be applied to all classes/specs, why Outlaw specifically?

"In the beginning"
Outlaw's NUMBERS were highest. But people still going it frustrating and the talents lack luster.
Then they nerfed it. Now it's NUMBERS are lowest. I often don't see many outlaws.

I don't know/care much about the other clases. I care about improving a Playstyle that suffers from easily solved problems.
Rolling 1 buff 12 times in a single target fight will make you rage. It doesn't FEEL good.
Having to get TrueBearing just to refresh AR, an ability that helps your energy our so much doesn't FEEL good
Having really only 1 viable talent path to take on a certain aspect of the game doesn't FEEL good.
Waiting 2-3 seconds to press a button outside of AR and CotD because your energy cost Doesn't a FEEL good.

So I set out to change it. Or to propose changes. Yes some of them are buffs, but only to balance out choices. Like the first talent row. Buffing the lesser chosen talent and making them better would make people really think and customize their Character.
Some of my ideas are WiP atm so have mercy

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Why would it feel better to have 2 buffs then 1, if 2 is the new lowest possible? Your whole pile of ideas is simply catering to the whining of people not understanding the scope and theme of the outlaw spec.

The change to RtB is just protect Badluck as outlaw IS. If you look at a Sim you'll see 2 outliers. One showing all GOOD rolls (2+) and one showing all BAD rolls (1).
The change is to bring the bad one in and make most of the time spent playing not fishing for 2 buffs or 1 good one.
A lot of people want it changed to baseline 2 buffs or just all 1 buffs that are then stranger but I actu understand the Idea.
The idea is to react. Like a pirate.
But currently we're dumb pirates. Our luck never gets better and the odds are always against us. So the new talent I came up with and the RtB badluck protection are to give us so much needed control but not to much.
I LOVE ROLL THE BONES. Reacting to your buffs is nice but it's to hard to balance it to were 1 buff is acceptable and 2 isn't op so I went with some protection. This way 50% of the time you'll still get 1 buff but the other 50% will be 2 buffs. And if you happen to only get 1 that's good, you can buff it and almost die.

Pirates control their fate by properly reacting to it. Not rerolling 12 times.
I'm the guy who calls himself Sinbad and has the Jack Sparrow poster in his room

[ymirsson]

Rerolling is by definition reacting to your fate. And the question remains, what do you do when people start complaining about rolling "only" 2 buffs. Change RtB again?

[Sinbad101]

Rerolling is by definition reacting to your fate. And the question remains, what do you do when people start complaining about rolling "only" 2 buffs. Change RtB again?

I'm glad a dialogue has formed here. Albiet defensive.
They should do what they should've done before they implemented RtB. Make Outlaw Less dependant on it. Right now we NEED 2 buffs to do good damage. Actuall we need it to do passable damage. But why? Because our baseline damage is gross and our energy cost and to damn high. RtB solves both of those slightly. They can't buff the damage at 1 buff, it would make 2+ to strong. It's rather complex.
But they can decrease our dependency on it and even give us some slight control over it. I'm no expert but at least that would feel better. Imo if people start complaining about just 2 buffs then they need to shut up and complain about damage numbers and Tunning instead.

My focus is the FEEL of the class, not it's performance.
As for "rerolling" being reacting. That would be fine if Rerolling didn't set you back with no way of catch up. That's why it shouldn't cost every and after less than 4 rolls you should be set. Because a pirate should learn and cheat.

[ymirsson]

Make Outlaw Less dependant on it. Right now we NEED 2 buffs to do good damage. Actuall we need it to do passable damage. Imo if people start complaining about just 2 buffs then they need to shut up and complain about damage numbers and Tunning instead. .

Why not start at 1 buff?

[Sinbad101]

Why not start at 1 buff?

What do you mean? Explain.
I said I was welcome to suggestions and additions but remember that RtB is harder to balance than it is to control. B/c the possibility of 2,3, or God mode 6 buffs.

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What RtB should have been was something that changed your rotation. Which it kind of is if you follow the golden rogue rules:
1. Don't cap energy
2. Don't waste CP
But it currently affects your damage to much.

[Lougarou]

What do you mean? Explain.
I said I was welcome to suggestions and additions but remember that RtB is harder to balance than it is to control. B/c the possibility of 2,3, or God mode 6 buffs.

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What RtB should have been was something that changed your rotation. Which it kind of is if you follow the golden rogue rules:
1. Don't cap energy
2. Don't waste CP
But it currently affects your damage to much.

You touched on a possible solution early in the thread. Increased chance of RtB 2+ buffs with each subsequent 1 buff roll... but reduce the chance of initial 2+ buffs at the outset to make it fair.

1st roll: 10% chance to roll 2+
2nd roll: 25% chance to roll 2+
3rd roll: 50% chance to roll 2+
4th roll: 75% chance to roll 2+
5th roll: 100% chance to roll 2+

on any 2+ roll, the 'die' is reset. At least in this manner you aren't jamming a pen in your eye cuz you rolled 12 successive 1 buff rolls, lol.

To make it interesting, get rid of that idiotic DfA... and replace it with a talent to remove the 10% option and go right to 25% off the first roll.

And for the record... SnD is pretty decent dps. I run SnD and usually top 5 in our raids.

[Sinbad101]

You touched on a possible solution early in the thread. Increased chance of RtB 2+ buffs with each subsequent 1 buff roll... but reduce the chance of initial 2+ buffs at the outset to make it fair.

1st roll: 10% chance to roll 2+
2nd roll: 25% chance to roll 2+
3rd roll: 50% chance to roll 2+
4th roll: 75% chance to roll 2+
5th roll: 100% chance to roll 2+

on any 2+ roll, the 'die' is reset. At least in this manner you aren't jamming a pen in your eye cuz you rolled 12 successive 1 buff rolls, lol.

To make it interesting, get rid of that idiotic DfA... and replace it with a talent to remove the 10% option and go right to 25% off the first roll.

And for the record... SnD is pretty decent dps. I run SnD and usually top 5 in our raids.

I understand what you're saying but that would do something blizzard doesn't want. Make 2 buffs guaranteed. They will never allow that. With my change there's ALWAYS a chance for 1 buff rolls. They like that. In their mind there are some buffs worth leaving alone.
Plus... While you're idea is a good one, it's not simple or FUN enough. I made my changes assuming that they're idiots b/c given their history they are. They have never balanced clases and specs right.
So it's a good idea but I goes against what they want RtB to be. Random.
My change just makes sure MOST people will get 2 buffs by their 4th roll but it's still random. They like that.
That's also why I included a new talent that would making getting 1 buff a good thing. Fortunes exchange. They will never make 2 buffs the most common but they can at least add in bad luck protection
SnD can be good dps but this isn't about DPS. At all. It's about playstyle. Currently the SnD Playstyle is consistent but boring. And this is a video game

[Xar226]

Some slight changes? This is like improving anything. Of course these changes owuld make outlaw better. But wouldn't it be easier to just up the damage of finishers by 1000%?

Oh shit, how did he miss that one in his list of buffing every talent and ability Outlaw has?

[Sinbad101]

Oh shit, how did he miss that one in his list of buffing every talent and ability Outlaw has?

You people never learn. These changes aren't buffs. They're changes to the feel of the spec.
I don't give a shit if they make these changes then nerf the shit out of outlaw's damage. This is about how the spec FEELS. I changed useless talents, buffed and tweaked lame as golden perks and added 1. I proposed adding different playstyles and adding thought and control to everything outlaw does. And the energy is so shit the spec feel slow af and punishing. These aren't damage buffs. And if I buffed talents like QuickDraw's damage its to balance out all the talents on that row.

Try to read.

[Deleted]

A couple of number tweaks is all that is "needed" right now.
It would be wonderful if we get any additional changes of course. Hook baseline for example.
But the spec works, got is own flavour and just needs a few small percents here and there. Maybe SS to 45 or 40 energy and upping it's damage slightly would be enough already.

On a sidenode, I love the rng of RtB. It can be frustrating sometimes, when you reroll a 3rd, a 4th and a 5th time only a singlebuff. But what it makes, is have you think and adopt to the situation on the fly. No other spec on no other class in the game does this to you in this scale. Sure, others have proccs, but no other class has to adopt to a completly changed way of cooldown reset, resource generation and set of buffs for example.

[Sinbad101]

I'll post this again!

This is not to Buff damage! This is to fix our playstyle. To fix it's problems. It's annoying and punishing RNG. It's lack luster basic rotation. And it's teriblé Talent choices and Pero chives that lack different and interesting additions. No impact.

So if you think that they are to buff outlaw even tho I don't give a damn about damage and you think outlaw just needs better NUMBERS, then don't comment. Give constructive criticism. But seriously yall can't see past damage. This about spec design and playstyle. Something lacking with outlaw at times.

[stomination]

Most of the problems with outlaw is how many ppl who are bad at it is trying to play that spec.

[Sinbad101]

A couple of number tweaks is all that is "needed" right now.
It would be wonderful if we get any additional changes of course. Hook baseline for example.
But the spec works, got is own flavour and just needs a few small percents here and there. Maybe SS to 45 or 40 energy and upping it's damage slightly would be enough already.

On a sidenode, I love the rng of RtB. It can be frustrating sometimes, when you reroll a 3rd, a 4th and a 5th time only a singlebuff. But what it makes, is have you think and adopt to the situation on the fly. No other spec on no other class in the game does this to you in this scale. Sure, others have proccs, but no other class has to adopt to a completly changed way of cooldown reset, resource generation and set of buffs for example.

I love the spec and RtB but my changes are to try and fix the rerolling 12 times and only getting 1 buff. So it needs badluck protection. The spec is slow and definitely needs energy adjustments and AR should imo be more easily refreshed, despite your luck.
The talents also needed changing. Currently there's only a set build for doing anything. Talents like Ghostly strike and MFD always being chosen. I'm trying to make it more interesting and a better choice.
Damage buffs would fix anything but our place on the damage charts. And I d care about that.

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Most of the problems with outlaw is how many ppl who are bad at it is trying to play that spec.

That's rare. And funny. The spec is so Damm simple outside RtB. And RtB is just punishing. So it needs adjustments. But how the hell can anyone be BAD??
Hell if you have good buffs and blizzard buffs the damage most scrubs would be happy and good at it. XD

[Sephiroso]

I love the spec and RtB but my changes are to try and fix the rerolling 12 times and only getting 1 buff. So it needs badluck protection. The spec is slow and definitely needs energy adjustments and AR should imo be more easily refreshed, despite your luck.
The talents also needed changing. Currently there's only a set build for doing anything. Talents like Ghostly strike and MFD always being chosen. I'm trying to make it more interesting and a better choice.
Damage buffs would fix anything but our place on the damage charts. And I d care about that.

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That's rare. And funny. The spec is so Damm simple outside RtB. And RtB is just punishing. So it needs adjustments. But how the hell can anyone be BAD??
Hell if you have good buffs and blizzard buffs the damage most scrubs would be happy and good at it. XD

You say the spec is so simple outside of RtB which it is but you don't realize RtB makes or breaks the spec. If you are shit at RtB, you will do shit dps. Period. No, it isn't as simple 2+ then gg. You'll barely parse blue for your ilvl range if that's all you're doing.

[Sylv_]

Wall'o'text.

[Sinbad101]

You say the spec is so simple outside of RtB which it is but you don't realize RtB makes or breaks the spec. If you are shit at RtB, you will do shit dps. Period. No, it isn't as simple 2+ then gg. You'll barely parse blue for your ilvl range if that's all you're doing.

But it is for everyone at the same RtB skill level. If you react correctly to your roll you'll follow rogues rules.
1. Don't cap energy 2. Don't waste CP
If you do that right and a friend do that right the damage difference doends on who got those 2 buffs first.
That's the annoyance I'm trying to fix but keeping that Reactive playstyle.
So a max of 50% chance to the 2 buff chance would make it so that you'll still react.


RTB is great but how it affects your damage and how you need 2 buffs period to do good dos is bullshit. So why change it? Why not use my change. That way there's still skill involved. And if you still get 1 buff you can at least empower it.

[Deleted]

Now that needs explanation.

: vers is a flat % damage increase which is the same for any class/spec. 1% damage is 1% damage, it scales the same on any spec/class.

For the most dps specs vers is not the best stat, that means that mastery/haste/crit gives more overall dps then this flat 1% damage increase from vers.
That means if the ilvl grows higher and higher outlaws will be be outscaled on the long run.

Lets say 50*1% from vers against 50*1,15% increase from crit, if you stack more and more vers will stay behind.

[Tengokuq]

please enlighten me how outlaw needs any changes being one of the strongest single target and aoe dps?

Strongest single? Hello? Fire mages? Spriest? Enhance shaman? Outlaw sucks at single target if you don't get a lucky rolls. Having to re-roll(Happend to me 8 times same buff, then 5 times the buff after it ) Which is 65 CP. RT's avg damage is 600k, 600*65 = All the damage lost. Unlike other classes, we have to deal with a strong shitty rng.

[Sephiroso]

: vers is a flat % damage increase which is the same for any class/spec. 1% damage is 1% damage, it scales the same on any spec/class.

For the most dps specs vers is not the best stat, that means that mastery/haste/crit gives more overall dps then this flat 1% damage increase from vers.
That means if the ilvl grows higher and higher outlaws will be be outscaled on the long run.

Lets say 50*1% from vers against 50*1,15% increase from crit, if you stack more and more vers will stay behind.

Flawed logic. Just because Vers is the best stat for Outlaw doesn't mean it scales worse compared to other classes. The difference between Outlaw's best and worst stat isn't that much, which is the reason it scales pretty decently. Compared to Assassination, where the difference between their best and worst is quite sizeable. What this means is, when you're inevitably getting your "bottom 2" stats on your gear since there's 0 chance you're gonna outfit every single piece with your best stats, you won't be as powerful as a class who is able to get rather good benefits from all stats.