Do you like how shadow priest damage is connected with boss %hp?

[Crimewave]

Yeah, I've always liked to be an execute monster.
It is our main strength and sole reason why shadow always was and will be one of the best specs for progression raiding.
Also, ToF is one of the coolest talents in the game and if you think it's boring, you probably not really good.

The main issue with shadow right now is that our talents are total crap. Couple of rows need complete redesign, some should be deleted and replaced.

[Coffeh]

Ion's twitter response basically saying changing the whole row would be a huge undertaking, and it's better to be a one trick pony than no trick pony seems very odd to me. I mean...it's really not a huge undertaking to change a talent row. Plenty of priests have given great options on how to do it.

[tiptopmemer]

Sure, it might be boring on pure ST fights but fights with adds you can increase your damage a huge amount my sniping ToF uptime. It's one of my favorite aspects of the spec.

Yeah, i get that. Players who apply themselves get better results, thats what talent choices should be about.

But one of the big interactions of Mass Hysteria, S2M and Execute range is Twist of fate.

Using S2M in Phase 1 of Xavius really shows you what S2M is like outside of execute range, its not OP at all.
Phase 1 without the dream is typical, you got some 2 target multidot which is excellent for spriest, you'll be near the bottom of the damage done, but not noticeably.
Phase 1 with dream puts us at the top of recount using S2M, perhaps behind 1-2 others depending on their luck and 2 target damage capabilities.

These are my personal observations, its also worth noting that i cant reliably get above 80 stacks of s2m (outside of execute range) because my stats are far from ideal (46% mastery).

Its worth noting that having no T15 talent as opposed to using Twist of Fate is roughly a 10-15% damage boost in damage in a patchwerk type encounter when used in conjunction with S2M. (ursoc normal/heroic).
I encourage people to try this out next lockout, do LFR/normal/heroic twice over (make sure the kill time is roughly the same, once with ToF and once with SWV (dont use it). The tooltip on ToF is incredibly misleading.
(20% damage boost over 35% of the fight would make you think 6.66%)

This doesnt even start to address its power in fights with adds or council fights where our Multidotting Mass Hysteria, S2M, Twist of Fate,, Shadowy App, Sphere of Insanity (kek) effectively TRIPLES your DPS sub 35%.

[ceall]

Yeah, i get that. Players who apply themselves get better results, thats what talent choices should be about.

But one of the big interactions of Mass Hysteria, S2M and Execute range is Twist of fate.

Using S2M in Phase 1 of Xavius really shows you what S2M is like outside of execute range, its not OP at all.
Phase 1 without the dream is typical, you got some 2 target multidot which is excellent for spriest, you'll be near the bottom of the damage done, but not noticeably.
Phase 1 with dream puts us at the top of recount using S2M, perhaps behind 1-2 others depending on their luck and 2 target damage capabilities.

These are my personal observations, its also worth noting that i cant reliably get above 80 stacks of s2m (outside of execute range) because my stats are far from ideal (46% mastery).

Its worth noting that having no T15 talent as opposed to using Twist of Fate is roughly a 10-15% damage boost in damage in a patchwerk type encounter when used in conjunction with S2M. (ursoc normal/heroic).
I encourage people to try this out next lockout, do LFR/normal/heroic twice over (make sure the kill time is roughly the same, once with ToF and once with SWV (dont use it). The tooltip on ToF is incredibly misleading.
(20% damage boost over 35% of the fight would make you think 6.66%)

This doesnt even start to address its power in fights with adds or council fights where our Multidotting Mass Hysteria, S2M, Twist of Fate,, Shadowy App, Sphere of Insanity (kek) effectively TRIPLES your DPS sub 35%.

I'm sorry but I can't understand how no lvl 15 talent results in a damage boost for patchwerk fights, could you please explain that further?

[Gorsameth]

Don't worry about it.

For starters, Shadow has always been an Execute Range spec - and we'll likely always remain that way. Twist of Fate and Shadow Word: Death made it so long ago, and will continue to make it so into the future - long after S2M is gone.

Secondly, S2M is going away - so the whole "Spriests do 5x damage in execute range" will vanish with the loss of S2M, we'll still maybe double our DPS during execute - but not 5x.

When we get new and more balanced L100 choices, maybe some of them won't simply be buffs to execute range - but other scenarios as well. I was pretty prolific about getting my ideas out there some months ago about how S2M should be removed and replaced with an entire L100 talent tier overhaul - and if the devs heard me - one of my ideas involved making Shadow Word: Death usable on targets above 80% HP - effectively giving Shadow both a spike at the start and end of boss fights.

Why should I not be worried about it when there is no sign of when it is getting fixed?

Its not happening for 7.1 so when is it? When Nighthold releases in 2+ months?
And that is assuming the dev's will even re-balance the entire spec part way through an expansion rather then just nerf StM into the ground and call it a day.

[Mamut]

Yeah, I've always liked to be an execute monster.
It is our main strength and sole reason why shadow always was and will be one of the best specs for progression raiding.

Would not be better in progression raiding to have comparable damage with other casters from start? Theres sometimes hundreds of pulls with wipes far away from 35%.

[Yvaelle]

Why should I not be worried about it when there is no sign of when it is getting fixed?

Its not happening for 7.1 so when is it? When Nighthold releases in 2+ months?
And that is assuming the dev's will even re-balance the entire spec part way through an expansion rather then just nerf StM into the ground and call it a day.

It's getting fixed in 7.2.

They didn't have time to delete S2M, design & test 3 new L100 talents, and completely rebalance Spriest numbers (because it requires a full rebalance of all our numbers, which currently only work with the assumption of S2M) - in Blizzard dev terms, even if they all focus on Shadow until its done - that's like a 6 week turn-around at best.

So yea, in Nighthold - S2M is likely gone - and Spriests are getting new L100 talents. So don't worry about the 5x DPS gain we get sub 35%, because it'll be back to like 2x in 7.2 - until then we enjoy S2M while it lasts.

Nerfing S2M into the ground and calling it a day was their plan for 7.1 - we Spriests worked hard to convince them to leave us as a one trick pony until they are ready to do the right thing - I call that a win for the Shadow community.

- - - Updated - - -

Would not be better in progression raiding to have comparable damage with other casters from start? Theres sometimes hundreds of pulls with wipes far away from 35%.

DPS on wipes means less than nothing, looking at partial meters will encourage you to make bad choices based on partial information - like a story half-told.

So no, it would not be better in progression raiding to have comparable DPS on the pull, so long as we have comparable DPS overall - and it is often actually advantageous to have increased DPS during execute range - because that is often when bosses get angry and start trying to wipe your raid - getting through Berserk-type mechanics means everything - doing 1M DPS for 30 seconds off the pull means nothing - while the boss is still RPing at you.

[zenkai]

It's always nice to be lower DPS when you are progressing and not seeing your true DPS until you get close to killing it.

- - - Updated - - -

Would not be better in progression raiding to have comparable damage with other casters from start? Theres sometimes hundreds of pulls with wipes far away from 35%.

Not to mention most DPS classes have CDs so they come out of the gate swinging.

[Crimewave]

Yvaelle said it right.

Also, any raid leader probably knows what shadow is and why you should always bring it to raid. We are talking about serious progression raiding, of course.
If you are not comfortable playing shadow due to damage being relocated to execute, I'm not sure why you are even playing this specialization. It is our identity for multiple expansions already. And while lack of strong cooldowns is an ongoing issue, I find it being seriously overblown on forums.

I remember when Dark Archangel was introduced and people complained about it being lackluster. I saw it as a stepping stone to something better in next expansions that could've potentially complement our strengths and help with weaknesses. Sadly, it was cut.

[Gorsameth]

Yvaelle said it right.

Also, any raid leader probably knows what shadow is and why you should always bring it to raid. We are talking about serious progression raiding, of course.
If you are not comfortable playing shadow due to damage being relocated to execute, I'm not sure why you are even playing this specialization. It is our identity for multiple expansions already. And while lack of strong cooldowns is an ongoing issue, I find it being seriously overblown on forums.

I remember when Dark Archangel was introduced and people complained about it being lackluster. I saw it as a stepping stone to something better in next expansions that could've potentially complement our strengths and help with weaknesses. Sadly, it was cut.

There is a point between being better during the execute phase and being (near) useless during the rest of the fight.

[Djriff]

There is a point between being better during the execute phase and being (near) useless during the rest of the fight.

Shadow is an execute class, I mean if you stack like 3 of them you'll probably have a bad time (outside of Xavius) but considering I jump from the bottom to the top 3 spots about 20 seconds after we hit 35% says something about our strength. Arguably our execute DPS is more important since we deal the most damage there it can bring the fight to an end quicker which I'm sure healers are grateful for.

[Gorsameth]

Shadow is an execute class, I mean if you stack like 3 of them you'll probably have a bad time (outside of Xavius) but considering I jump from the bottom to the top 3 spots about 20 seconds after we hit 35% says something about our strength. Arguably our execute DPS is more important since we deal the most damage there it can bring the fight to an end quicker which I'm sure healers are grateful for.

My point is that I would prefer it if we lost a little of that damage at the end and got it during the rest of the fight instead.
Which is what will happen if we no longer take StM and get compensated for it.

We can still be strong during execute, that is not the problem. I would rather the distribution be 45-55 then 30-70 (numbers obv entirely made up).

[Djriff]

Actually those numbers are pretty accurate lol

That aside, if StM gets changed something also needs to be done about ToF. On fights where you can keep good uptime of it, we can keep up, outside of that not so much until the boss hits 35%.

[Mamut]

Also so huge focus on execute is a problem on bosses like Odyn. Fight stop at 10% hp? Im not against having more damage on execute but I think current state is a bit too extreme on this matter.

[Yvaelle]

Actually those numbers are pretty accurate lol

That aside, if StM gets changed something also needs to be done about ToF. On fights where you can keep good uptime of it, we can keep up, outside of that not so much until the boss hits 35%.

Make it baseline, give us something else in that spot

[Rumstein]

Ion's twitter response basically saying changing the whole row would be a huge undertaking, and it's better to be a one trick pony than no trick pony seems very odd to me. I mean...it's really not a huge undertaking to change a talent row. Plenty of priests have given great options on how to do it.

Doesn't seem odd to me. It tells me that they are actually putting thought into it rather than just capping MH at 50 and calling it a day.

His comments are a very good thing, let's hope the follow through matches.