Unsure to Sub or Sin! help please rogue friends

[Shragnasty]

Hey all, since release I've bounced around between 4 classes already. Trying to find the right one that I'll like to stick with. First my mage..then my DH, then my Arms warrior, and now finally my rogue(Hoping I like this the most, was a blast to level)

Anywho, I've just recently hit 110 on my Rogue, and have a tough decision -- SUB or SIN!

I've learned to save up my Artifact power items given how class changes are happening regularly at the start of an expansion. I have almost no desire to play Outlaw, due to RtB rng (just like my Arms War RNG ><)

I've leveled as Subtlety and it was a blast to blow shit up super quick and keep the flow going. Obviously leveling specs differ from endgame raiding and mythics, so I'm finding it a little odd when it comes to getting use to a little change in how to build CPs..especially with Deeper Stratagem, things don't fall into place correctly and I find myself at 5 cps within a Shadow Dance and would obviously overcap with the next Shadow Strike(using Premed talent).

Sin sounds fun, and class fantasy wise very interesting being a bleed/poison spec now. As I've said I leveled only as Sub, and have zero clue how Sin plays personally, watching a video doesn't give me the best insight as to how it works, but I suppose it's better than nothing ><

With that said, what should I invest all my AP items into? Sub or Sin? My Sub weapon is only lvl 11 so it's not far along at all. I've messaged a lot of rogues ingame asking which they'd prefer and it's mixed feelings as usual, but I've seen a few say the say thing, that Subtlety is better when you reach higher ILVLS compared to Sin.

Thanks!
-Shrag

[TheRogue]

Its a lottery, blizz has decided to make Outlaw the top one week, then Sub then Sin.

Doesn't matter what you pick really, it will change based on the whim of the devs.

But of those two, for right now, Sin is doing nice damage, but for the future, Sub will pull ahead.

There is no clear answer unfortunately, just don't pick Outlaw for the love of god, blizz basically pulled the rug out from under everyone who went Outlaw based on the best knowledge we had at hand in the early days.

Sorry for my salt, but I am invested heavily in to Outlaw and my real life means I cant spend the time grinding up another weapon and I am mad they did this to me!

[Shragnasty]

But of those two, for right now, Sin is doing nice damage, but for the future, Sub will pull ahead.

So at what point would Sub be better ilvl wise? my rogue is maybe 821 or something now, after jumping up 30+ ilvls in a day ><

If that's the case though I just have to stick with it i guess, just hope I don't regret it in the end. Also, how does Sin play rotation wise compared to Sub? a lot the manage debuff wise or fairly simple? CP management easier along with energy regens or what? Always hate the resource strave moments, but hey, it'll happen from time to time i suppose

[pies1]

So at what point would Sub be better ilvl wise? my rogue is maybe 821 or something now, after jumping up 30+ ilvls in a day ><

If that's the case though I just have to stick with it i guess, just hope I don't regret it in the end. Also, how does Sin play rotation wise compared to Sub? a lot the manage debuff wise or fairly simple? CP management easier along with energy regens or what? Always hate the resource strave moments, but hey, it'll happen from time to time i suppose

Not until nighthold based on sims. Poison build is very straight forward.

[Gaaz]

Sin is my personal favorite spec for a rogue (sticked to it from the start, even when combat / outlaw was fotm). Just feels more logical and predictable I suppose.
That said, in current state of balance you can pretty much choose any spec for a rogue and still be competitive even at the highest level, provided you master your spec. Sub might slightly pull ahead in raw numbers in near future. But legendaries for Sin are really insane, and if you got lucky to get some of them (like 40% damage buff on execute phase), even if (and that is still open to debate) it is going to be a little lower in damage meters on average, Sin is still going to be far superior in terms of mechanics of damage application, and therefore the preferred spec.

[Shragnasty]

Sin is my personal favorite spec for a rogue (sticked to it from the start, even when combat / outlaw was fotm). Just feels more logical and predictable I suppose.
That said, in current state of balance you can pretty much choose any spec for a rogue and still be competitive even at the highest level, provided you master your spec. Sub might slightly pull ahead in raw numbers in near future. But legendaries for Sin are really insane, and if you got lucky to get some of them (like 40% damage buff on execute phase), even if (and that is still open to debate) it is going to be a little lower in damage meters on average, Sin is still going to be far superior in terms of mechanics of damage application, and therefore the preferred spec.

Is there a certain way to gear for Sin then? I see alot of talk as far as choosing Vers over Mastery and vice versa. I have a strong urge to want to play sin, just struggling with this choice seeing as there is no going back for all the time you invest in a Artifact weapon(which is complete bs..) WIth my current gear(824ilvl) I have alot of mastery when spec'd to sin, 101 but lacking on Crit if I remember what my stats showed.

Also, whats the preferred stat balance then for both Sin and Sub?

[Gaaz]

Is there a certain way to gear for Sin then? I see alot of talk as far as choosing Vers over Mastery and vice versa. I have a strong urge to want to play sin, just struggling with this choice seeing as there is no going back for all the time you invest in a Artifact weapon(which is complete bs..) WIth my current gear(824ilvl) I have alot of mastery when spec'd to sin, 101 but lacking on Crit if I remember what my stats showed.

Also, whats the preferred stat balance then for both Sin and Sub?

I know that it is not the answer you are probably looking for, but in short - it totally depends on your gear, talent and trinket choice. For example, if you use exsanguinate for assasination, mastery is perhaps your bottom stat. However, if you use Aginizing Poison, it is the top stat. You can calculate stat weights using simcraft. But you will have to update your numbers pretty regularly. If you want to keep both assasination and subtlety competitive at the same time (which I personally do not think is such a good idea untill you get 35 points in one or the other, but whatever floats your boat), concentrating on mastery and versatility is probably a safest bet. In that order. Crit is not terrible either. Just make sure to avoid haste if possible. At the same time, try to choose talents that are positively influenced by your stat choice. It means that if you go the mastery/versatility way, you should avoid talents that do not draw on your preferred stats. Like already mentioned exsanguinate for assasination.

[Grizvok]

Yeah uhhh Mastery still sims pretty high even if you play Exsanguinate. Crit is also the best stat for both builds...undeniably so for Exsanguinate and then once your Mastery is at around 105% for AP crit takes the lead for that as well.

[Riverr]

I recently went from Outlaw to Sub and am not seeing the numbers sadly (23 points in). If I were to do it again, I'd go assass. The sims actually show assass doing the same damage as sub (actually slightly ahead) in M EN when you remove all legendaries or use insignia on all specs, so that's 880 ilvl. I chose sub because I figured it'd be more active but yeah, efficiency in raid is top priority for me.

The one thing I'll say is to not worry too much about switching specs down the road. Once your research is up, you can get to 20 points in days, not weeks. But yes, you'll be behind those who stuck with the same spec from day 1.

[Deleted]

I recently went from Outlaw to Sub and am not seeing the numbers sadly (23 points in). If I were to do it again, I'd go assass. The sims actually show assass doing the same damage as sub (actually slightly ahead) in M EN when you remove all legendaries or use insignia on all specs, so that's 880 ilvl. I chose sub because I figured it'd be more active but yeah, efficiency in raid is top priority for me.

The one thing I'll say is to not worry too much about switching specs down the road. Once your research is up, you can get to 20 points in days, not weeks. But yes, you'll be behind those who stuck with the same spec from day 1.

This is mu experience too, I went sub because its 'the future' but it feels like gimping yourself now.. All three golden traits seem good for sub though.. So theres definetly some untapped power st the end there for me.

But ye for now 'best' spec is sin.. Soon(tm) itll hopefully be sub

[Lilathae]

Hey all, since release I've bounced around between 4 classes already. Trying to find the right one that I'll like to stick with. First my mage..then my DH, then my Arms warrior, and now finally my rogue(Hoping I like this the most, was a blast to level)

Anywho, I've just recently hit 110 on my Rogue, and have a tough decision -- SUB or SIN!

I've learned to save up my Artifact power items given how class changes are happening regularly at the start of an expansion. I have almost no desire to play Outlaw, due to RtB rng (just like my Arms War RNG ><)

I've leveled as Subtlety and it was a blast to blow shit up super quick and keep the flow going. Obviously leveling specs differ from endgame raiding and mythics, so I'm finding it a little odd when it comes to getting use to a little change in how to build CPs..especially with Deeper Stratagem, things don't fall into place correctly and I find myself at 5 cps within a Shadow Dance and would obviously overcap with the next Shadow Strike(using Premed talent).

Sin sounds fun, and class fantasy wise very interesting being a bleed/poison spec now. As I've said I leveled only as Sub, and have zero clue how Sin plays personally, watching a video doesn't give me the best insight as to how it works, but I suppose it's better than nothing ><

With that said, what should I invest all my AP items into? Sub or Sin? My Sub weapon is only lvl 11 so it's not far along at all. I've messaged a lot of rogues ingame asking which they'd prefer and it's mixed feelings as usual, but I've seen a few say the say thing, that Subtlety is better when you reach higher ILVLS compared to Sin.

Thanks!
-Shrag

Play whatever you like to play.

If you had a blast with sub, go for sub!
Stats to go for are vers/mastery.

If you are interested in Sin, poison build is the way to go for now. stats are crit/mastery

Myself I mix em up, I have sub main and sin poison off with crit/mastery/vers gear.